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Modified Forte 1 Upgrades-Bob Crites Autotransformers and Titanium Tweeters

Discussion in 'The Klipsch Korner' started by SET12, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    Modified Forte 1 Upgrades-With Outboard Crossovers

    Hello all, I recently have had the pleasure of doing some business with Bobs business B&K Sound and had the pleasure of placing an order from his son Michael for their replacement Autotransformer's and Titanium Tweeters.


    And these New Mid-range improved diaphragms!!! are added, just arrived today 01-14-2010 see the bottom of page 21 for the start of this new install mod!

    [​IMG]


    And I got to say this is a very serious upgrade :yes: that is not taken lightly by myself.

    I have spent considerable time and money into my Fortes outboard crossovers and have enjoyed the fruits of my labors but these two upgrades are some of the Fortes biggest strides in sound quality. And not that the others are not ground breaking but for the funds for these its a must have. :thmbsp:

    Forte network.jpg

    I encountered some resistance from a few of my friends and I must admit I was a little apprehensive about Titanium as metal tweeters don't seem to be the most welcome additions to many people!

    But Bob has made it clear he has no audiophile notions!


    And when he said these Titanium's were smooth! He meant smooth!

    And I'm all for that! And more!

    I installed the Autotransformer's and gave them a listen first!
    [​IMG]

    I could hear the bandwidth extension right away! And I got to tell you I didn't know if I was keeping them as I thought they seemed bright so I thought! :scratch2: That is until the Titaniums were installed!

    The resultant sound has left me stunned! And :scratch2:my head!

    So Bob wasn't kidding when he said the Titaniums are smooth and flat! Making the stock units sound ragged and harsh in contrast! And his Autotransformer's have revealed a whole new meaning to midrange effortlessness making the stock units sound compressed at higher levels and lower rez.

    For me Mr. Bob Crites is a Klipsch "Godsend"

    SET12:thmbsp:
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
    ccdowenye likes this.

     

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  2. Carl G

    Carl G Active Member

    Messages:
    225
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    Very, very nice, Set. I agree - Bob is a godsend.

    As always, nice crossover work by Bob. Also, glad to hear that you like the new titanium dias. I was never a fan of the Forte tweeters (come to think of it - I feel that way about most of the Klipsch tweeters). Back when I had stand alone Fortes, I replaced the tweeters with Eminence tweets, the smallest horn size (ironically the same driver that Bob uses in his CT 125).

    Congrats again and happy, happy listening.
     
  3. Urizen

    Urizen Lunatic Member

    Messages:
    24,636
    Nice work on those crossovers. Is that velcro that you've used to secure the caps to the board?

    Ken
     
  4. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    Thanks!

    Yes,Thats Velcro. It has worked out well for me as it allows easy removal and installation of new components to audition if I did it over again I'd probaly do it different to make the audition of components easier as I have to extend the leads before installing new components.

    SET12
     
  5. Brinkman

    Brinkman Analog loyalist

    Messages:
    192
    I've hopped on this bandwagon here.
    I've ordered and am awaiting my titanium tweeters and autotransformers from Bob. This is perfect timing, as I'd already been eyeballing a replacement pair of North Creek inductors for the woofers as well as a pair of Solen Hepta Litz for the tweeters.
    I'm happy I didn't fuss with my capacitor choices (in my re-cap) too much, as these upgrades seem a lot more sensible a change to re-"tune" caps to.

    Set12: I was considering a 47uF Solen for the woofer cap, but some online research led me think the Jantzen CrossCap was a better choice. Have you tried it?

    -Brinkman
     
  6. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    No, I haven't tried them I'm using a Solen 45uf bypassed with a 2.2 uf Mundorf Supreme for extremely reduced residual-resistance (ESR). Considerable low residual-inductivity (ESL). Practically induction-free type of construction and the low loss factor of the M-CAP result in a very "quick" capacitor. Used by Audiodata, Sonus Faber and many others.

    This cap really puts a clamp or short on any residue energy residing in the woofers coil.

    They say if its not in the signal path don't worry about it! But! Does it really not affect the signal? I have some reservations about the don't worry about thing! For now I am very content with the woofer circuit!

    Although the North Creek low frequency inductors work well! Some people don't care for there winding geometry because they aren't exactly perfect and real pretty like the solen perfect lay's! But they are very effective with their Iron grip I'm glad I bought them a few yrs ago as they are expensive! But if I had to do it again I'd probably use a Solen paralleled pair of 12ga for an 8ga equivalent(Thats 2-6mh for a 3mh equivalent) and I'm contemplating this in the near future with the Solen Hepa Litz's but for now I'll be listening close to their 14ga that I recently ordered.

    I have a pair of Duelund Copper caps in the midrange now as of today. I will post some comments on them in the next couple of days.

    As for the tweeters they are really amazing! And the Autotransformer's as well good choices!

    I wouldn't set yourself in stone on cap choices! But if I had to pick an over all an reasonable cap to work with in the mids and highs it would definitely be the Mundorf Silver foil and oils. I was under the impression that I had a Silver/Gold/Oil for my Mids and have discovered the are just the Silver/Gold's they are still very good much better than the Hovlands! But I'd like to hear the oil version anyway. Having the Duelund is suppose to be a step above those yet! Right now The Duelunds are very,very natural and smooth, well controled with beautifully developed harmonics! More later!

    I noticed I didn't provided the Cap Link I'm using for reference in cap choices! So here it is

    http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


    SET12
     

     

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  7. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    My Solen Hepa Litz inductors are on their way here!

    But I have to tell you after today. The combination of the Mundorf Silver/Oil on the Tweeters and the Duelunds for the Midrange is without question one of the best mid and top ends I have ever heard in my 35yrs of audio. The Duelunds are worth their weight in gold! These things are well ahead of the competition in terms of neutrality, harmonics and texture and I want to add they make many caps sound rough or especially etched, the dynamics of this cap are tremendous to! this cap is not a smooth over or gloss over kind of cap but one that transmits a wealth of detail without being hyped! It is just beautiful, and is the most I can say I guess!:smoke:

    So spend the money for the best midrange cap you can afford!:yes:
     
  8. Brinkman

    Brinkman Analog loyalist

    Messages:
    192
    My package from Bob Crites arrived today. Man, that was fast.
    Anyhow, will get around to installation soon. Have to rework my speaker binding posts first, so I can have the option back of running 8ohm. That may be a major improvement in and of itself...

    SET12: I too, am wondering about the cap in the woofer crossover and to it's affect on the woofer output. I have no reason to doubt the experience of the many more knowledgeable folks who haunt these parts, but I certainly have a curious nature and would love to have the time, wisdom, and tools to measure for myself.
    As to the "humblehifi" link, I've seen that (and the few others like it), but my system is even more so very humble the law of diminishing returns is even more ruthless, and so in my crude system, Mundorfs are virtually indistinguishable from Solens. In other words, capacitor experiments take a back seat to tube rolling, which takes a back seat to basic component upgrades. My hat's off to you, though. I'm look forward to reading what you will report.
    One more thing: You mention paralleling Solen inductors (two 12ga, 6mH) for the equivalent of a single 8ga. 3mH. The DCR of a 12ga 6mH solen is about .65 Ohms, so their DCR in parallel is, what, .116 Ohms? Very clever.
    Wish I coulda thought of that before I placed a certain North Creek order...

    -Brinkman
     
  9. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    Yeah me to! Yeah I wish I'd thought of it yrs ago! But the woofer is not as critical as the tweeter.

    And which Mundorfs?

    I'm going to tell you this!

    First, The Duelunds are not your everyday capacitor!

    Second, They are more profound then tube rolling! And worth more then 10 sets of tubes! IMO

    They are just that good!

    Seriously, and I had no idea just how until I heard them!

    SET12
     
  10. vintaggeman

    vintaggeman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    966
    Location:
    cape cod
    :ntwrthy::ntwrthy:
     
  11. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    Its hard to image what your thinking here!:scratch2: I'm guessing you think my comments are a little much! :smoke:

    Perhaps we should talk about signal paths?:yes:

    Maybe that will explain why I hear what I hear!:music:

    SET12
     

     

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  12. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
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    "One more thing: You mention paralleling Solen inductors (two 12ga, 6mH) for the equivalent of a single 8ga. 3mH. The DCR of a 12ga 6mH solen is about .65 Ohms, so their DCR in parallel is, what, .116 Ohms? Very clever."

    No it would be half of .65 = .325

    And yes I like the 8 ohm tap very much for the mids, only once in awhile do I think I'd like a little extra grunt from the 4 ohm tap but its not often enough to warrant me using the 4 ohm tap.

    I have some ideas to pursue on the woofer though.

    Anyway keep in touch on your resulting sound I think you'll be well pleased! And if you have any issues change the Mid Cap as it has a profound impact for ultimate smoothness.

    SET12
     
  13. Brinkman

    Brinkman Analog loyalist

    Messages:
    192
    Yes, you're right. Using a calculator correctly is key here.

    At any rate, North Creek's 12ga. inductor's DCR is only .30 Ohms, slightly better than the solens in parallel. Is there something other than low DCR that you're after? I'm still learning the basics, so fill me in here...

    My Forte upgrades are a result of what I have read here in the Klipsch Korner, and what I learned from Al Klappenberger's Great Inductor Face-Off thread. Google: Great Inductor Face-Off if you're interested.

    -Brinkman
     
  14. BECtoo

    BECtoo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    505
    This link will get you to some much more "gnarly" details.

    http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/38976.aspx?PageIndex=1

    Bob Crites
     
  15. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    I'll spend some time on Bob and Al's thread to study it for awhile but I picked this up from

    North Creek's Inductor FAQ's

    "First and foremost, our wire wound inductors are made on a custom built, tension-free winding machine. This winding method minimizes the stretch and mechanical deformation of the copper, so there is no strain on the copper and its conductivity remains at a maximum. All copper foil inductors (and most copper wire inductors) are wound at very high tensions, so both the copper and the insulating film are stretched and remain under tension for the life of the product. Tension is differential stretch, which creates microfractures in both the copper and insulating material. This is about the worst thing one can do to a conductor."

    A good point!

    Makes me feel good about the North Creek!

    More later!

    And Thanks Bob!

    SET12
     
  16. Brinkman

    Brinkman Analog loyalist

    Messages:
    192
    Bob,

    Thank you very much for that link. I gobbled it up and will probably go back for seconds. Pretty involved reading.

    Makes me look forward to the day when the only modification left for my Fortes is cosmetic. There's a place around the corner that sells mahogany veneer. $30.00 will get you enough to restore a pair of enclosures. Mine need it.

    -Brinkman
     

     

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  17. cfranz

    cfranz That's my boy

    Messages:
    1,562
    Location:
    Crete, Il
    Gosh. Everybody who's tried or heard Bob's upgrade has gushed over them. I've not heard any complaints except that the wallet is substantially lighter.

    Could Bob and Michael Crites might just have something?
     
  18. Brinkman

    Brinkman Analog loyalist

    Messages:
    192
    My wallet's pretty light as it is, and I'd say the parts and labor are very fairly priced. Then again, I initially tried updating the crossover myself, and made a mess of it. So yeah, Bob & Michael do good work.

    -Brinkman
     
  19. KlipschFan61

    KlipschFan61 Smooth Jazzer

    Messages:
    938
    Location:
    Manchester, NH
    If you're handy enough with a soldering iron, the price is more than reasonable.

    What school you go? :scratch2:
    :D
     
  20. SET12

    SET12 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,841
    Location:
    Appleton,WI
    I found DeanG's comments real interesting here!

    "I didn't expect to ever come back to this thread again, but have had a surprising experience. I finished my ALKs a few days ago, and as part of the build I went with some 10AWG Solen air cores which I mounted on separate boards because of their size. The DCR of the 10AWG air cores is .16, the same as the Erse Super Q steel laminates I've been using from Parts Express. FWIW, there's a pretty big difference in the bass. After an hour or so of listening I put some Super Q's into the circuit to see what it would sound like, and though still very good, sounded lean in comparison, and not nearly as full bodied and tight as the air cores. I've had the beasts laying around for a long time, and I'm glad I finally found use for them. I didn't expect to hear a difference, wasn't even listening for it, but it was pretty obvious."

    His comments are very interesting here! As I to have great body in the bass and often the bass lines cause my friends to comment where did that come from?

    But I have to wonder if the mass of the coil has an influence on the body and I'm going to find out! With the Litz 14 ga vs the North creek 8 ga..The Litz might give information! but does the Litz have the body?

    If it does have the information would increasing the mass of the Litz improve the body?

    Something to ponder!!

    The top end of the Titaniums with the North Creek and the Mundorf Silver/Oils is just gorgeous right now!

    My system has such a short signal path and the fact that it has just the two gain stages with CD direct with great transparency should allow me hear a difference. Everything else has.

    I'm going to listen to some tunes and enjoy these new parts!

    BTW I think I paid 250$ total for the 3mh North Creek inductors about 4yrs ago and now I see they are 500$ Geez! But the bass is very good as though they have an Iron grip on them, thats expensive but darn it, they sound great!

    And these Duelund Caps are just incredible!

    SET12
     

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