My DIY Acoustic Panels. Wow what an amazing difference!!!!

Thanks Gary for sharing your experiences. This is very helpful info for myself and anyone else who decides to go down this path and reap the HUGE rewards.

I now have a total of 80 sqft of absorption which equates to 13% of the total wall and ceiling surface area of 606 sqft. The room itself is 12' x 13' or 156 sqft and on the Acoustimac Website their room calculator recommends 7 nr 4' x 2' panels. For me the addition of the rear panels brought everything into perfect focus and I think I am at the point where I no longer need anymore panels.

Can you recall how much surface area of absorption you had when you noticed the room becoming lifeless. I have not noticed any drop off with adding the remaining panels but I certainly won't be adding anymore as I feel I have addressed all the reflection points that I need to for my room. See below.

View attachment 912954
My living room is 17' x 16' = 272sq. feet. The first trail was 3 ea. - 2'x4' = 24sq. feet panels, which I though was too much. Looking at your photos it seems like way too much for my taste. But you must also take furniture into account plus ceiling material (mine is that old 1970's acoustic tiles) carpet etc. My main concept here is there is no calculator, coefficient of sound absorption, and or formula that will exactly predict what you need or more importantly like. I view them as only guides. I've hung enough pictures on the wall to know you through away the level. I don't care how accurate the levelness is on the picture, if it doesn't appear level to your eye you will never be satisfied. Make the picture please your eye and forget about absolute levelness. The same with your room sound. Make it please you, not me, or satisfy some formula.

One of the things I tried was to put my sound absorbers right at the "first reflection points" on the left and the right side. This should of worked well in theory, but I hated the sound of it! Even with no music playing the sound of the quiet room with those 2' x 4' panels on each side of the room was terrible. I know the first reflection points are very important, but the only thing I can deduce is my Khorns each point at the center of the room in a criss-cross fashion, and so a lot of what I've read does not apply to the Khorns. Such as there is no space behind the speaker as they go right into he corner of the room. So I'm kind of on my own here and throw away the books.

My advise is to listen to acoustic music and vocals. You know what voice and guitar is supposed to sound like as apposed to all those wonderful "electronic" sounds. My aim is to make the system sound like the musicians are in the room. I bought a turn table a few years ago from this guy in my neighborhood. The good news is I could go to his house to hear /addition it. He prided his system for sonic clarity which it was! Crisp and clean in the extreme! But there was hardly any bass which to me sounded awful and artificial, but he loved it.
Gary
 
but the only thing I can deduce is my Khorns each point at the center of the room in a criss-cross fashion, and so a lot of what I've read does not apply to the Khorns. Such as there is no space behind the speaker as they go right into he corner of the room. So I'm kind of on my own here and throw away the books.

Knowing the dispersion characteristics of the speaker design in use is profoundly relevant when it comes to assessing a room's acoustic profile and implementing an acoustic treatment scenario that is appropriate for the room and the speakers being used. The room, after all, is an extension of the stereo system and great care should be taken to ensure it's an appropriate fit in the context of the system as a whole. Dipole, line source, cd horn, etc all have unique dispersion characteristics that require special consideration when optimizing a room's acoustic profile for that particular design.
 
I see you've made some significant progress since I last checked this thread. Nice work! As I scrolled through posts to get updated I came across the pic of your listening spot and saw how close it is to the rear wall. It comes as absolutely no surprise to me that you got the results you claimed once you got panels up on the back wall. Fact of the matter is, of all the early reflection generating boundary layers in your room (ceiling, side walls and back wall), the back wall was almost certainly generating the most harmful early reflection since it's so much closer to your head than any of the others. This will create some serious smearing of spatial cues in the recording and it's no wonder the image and sound stage resolution came into focus for you once you killed that reflection from behind.

As for how much absorption is too much/not enough...the rules are really pretty simple. If you want to hear an accurate reproduction of what's in the recording (namely spatial cues) you must eliminate the sonic anomalies being generated by the room that compromise fidelity. To do this you create a reflection free zone at the listening position. That means you determine exactly where any and all early arriving reflections are being generated from and put effective (broadband) absorption at those locations. This will result in a very small percentage of the total amount of reflective surface area being covered by absorption...meaning the room's reverb/decay characteristics aren't severely nullified (the exception to this might be found in a scenario where absorption devices are added to a room that is already saturated with absorptive surfaces....fully carpeted floor, lots of cushy furniture, drapes, tapestries, rugs, carpet or the like covering significant amounts of total boundary layer surface area, etc.) because remember, only those areas that are first reflection generators of an early reflection need absorption. Of course, bass traps are absorbers as well, but corners rarely, if ever, generate early reflections...so even the face of bass traps can be covered with a thin, acoustically reflective membrane to help return mid and high frequency energy into the room to keep it "lively". Anyway, the key is knowing whether or not this wall, that wall, the ceiling or the floor or coffee table is generating an early refection. How does one figure that out? There's something called the Haas effect that answers this...any reflection arriving at the listening position within 15 ms of the arrival of the primary wave (sonic energy dispersed from the speaker directly to the listening position) will be an early refection. Since sound travels about 17' in 15ms, what you have to do is find the first reflection location on each boundary layer (using the mirror method) and do a few quick calculations. First determine the distance from the speaker(s) to the listening position...we'll use a hypothetical value of 10'. Then take the distance from the speaker to the first reflection location in question, add that to the distance from the same first reflection location to listening position, we'll say 8' and 8' which equals 16. If the difference between that value which represents the distance from the speaker to first reflection point added to the distance from the same first reflection point to the listening position (16') and that value which represents the direct path distance from the speaker(s) to the listening position (10') is 17' or less then it will generate an early reflection and absorption should be placed at that location (8+8=16 and 16-10=6 which is < 17). Had the distance from the speaker to the first reflection location been 14' and the distance from the first reflection location to the listening position been 14' then that first reflection location would not be generating an early reflection and no absorption would be needed there (since 14+14=28 and 28-10 =18 which is > 17).

Michael, great input yet again. In summarizing your post it appears that smaller rooms with minimalist furnishings like mine are the most affected by early reflection points and that larger rooms (both width and length) with ample furniture may not need as much absorption as it is possible that less surfaces will be generating early reflection due to the distances involved. The example of the Haas effect highlights the challenges a room like mine has.

In my set up I have eliminated the first reflection points on the side walls for both speakers using the mirror trick. The front wall has been treated the best I can with 1 panel, but I think it is effective. The corners bass traps are helping with mitigating the accumulation of bass in the corners (I think?). But as you pointed out, the most effective panels are the ones behind me, which are helping those early reflections close to my ears.

The only other first reflection that has not been treated is the ceiling. I could place a couple of panels on the ceiling to see what the effect is, but given that this is only a temporary listening room I think I'll wait until I am move into my permanent room.
 
My living room is 17' x 16' = 272sq. feet. The first trail was 3 ea. - 2'x4' = 24sq. feet panels, which I though was too much. Looking at your photos it seems like way too much for my taste. But you must also take furniture into account plus ceiling material (mine is that old 1970's acoustic tiles) carpet etc. My main concept here is there is no calculator, coefficient of sound absorption, and or formula that will exactly predict what you need or more importantly like. I view them as only guides. I've hung enough pictures on the wall to know you through away the level. I don't care how accurate the levelness is on the picture, if it doesn't appear level to your eye you will never be satisfied. Make the picture please your eye and forget about absolute levelness. The same with your room sound. Make it please you, not me, or satisfy some formula.

One of the things I tried was to put my sound absorbers right at the "first reflection points" on the left and the right side. This should of worked well in theory, but I hated the sound of it! Even with no music playing the sound of the quiet room with those 2' x 4' panels on each side of the room was terrible. I know the first reflection points are very important, but the only thing I can deduce is my Khorns each point at the center of the room in a criss-cross fashion, and so a lot of what I've read does not apply to the Khorns. Such as there is no space behind the speaker as they go right into he corner of the room. So I'm kind of on my own here and throw away the books.

My advise is to listen to acoustic music and vocals. You know what voice and guitar is supposed to sound like as apposed to all those wonderful "electronic" sounds. My aim is to make the system sound like the musicians are in the room. I bought a turn table a few years ago from this guy in my neighborhood. The good news is I could go to his house to hear /addition it. He prided his system for sonic clarity which it was! Crisp and clean in the extreme! But there was hardly any bass which to me sounded awful and artificial, but he loved it.
Gary

Thanks Gary for the follow up. That's a decent size space you got there and I agree that the Khorns may have had something to do with your experiences with first reflection points. I will take your advice and spend some critical listening time with my acoustic and vocal selection this weekend. Maybe moving panels in and out of the room to see what happens.
 
I probably wouldn't mess with the ceiling panels given the "temporary" status of your listening space. You've accomplished a significant improvement in the acoustic response of the room with all you have done and now have some valuable insight and experience under your belt that will benefit you greatly for your remaining days in the hobby. Sit back and enjoy the fruits...you've earned them!
 
I probably wouldn't mess with the ceiling panels given the "temporary" status of your listening space. You've accomplished a significant improvement in the acoustic response of the room with all you have done and now have some valuable insight and experience under your belt that will benefit you greatly for your remaining days in the hobby. Sit back and enjoy the fruits...you've earned them!

Thanks for the advice and kind words. I shall follow that advice and focus on equipment isolation next. :biggrin:
 
OK. Here are the final pics and a couple of before and after videos. Please bare in mind that the videos were shot with an iPhone so the sound is not representative of the actual quality you hear in person. What you do hear is the stark contrast between with and without panels.

I am totally over the moon by how much improvement 8 panels at a cost of $30 each have provided.

Here are the photos

IMG_2023.JPG IMG_2025.JPG IMG_2024.JPG IMG_2027.JPG IMG_2026.JPG
 
Love the setup....great work and great result. Your thread pushed me over the edge to finally do this.....I bought the insulation, fabric etc over a year ago and now really want to get it done.
 
Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad this thread got you motivated. You will not regret it.

If possible post your progress and results.
 
When we get into a different house this year, and I have my dedicated music room, room acoustics will be priority #1 for me. I've played around with various absorption materials in my current house, but my main system is shared with the living room so I dont want to do anything permanate.
Liked your build pics! I will definately use them as a referance when I'm ready to do mine. Thanks!!
 
Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad this thread got you motivated. You will not regret it.

If possible post your progress and results.

I will post my results when I start putting them together.....I have a challenging room to start with....26x16 with a 15' ceiling that slants on both ends and flattens out at around 14-15ft. The other challenge I have, like you, is the windows right behind my setup. Unfortunately I don't have the space in between windows like you did, to put a panel.....it's a 9 ft run of windows. I was thinking that I will have to cover them with a lined velvet curtain/drape. The make some that are recommended for home theater that not only block out light but have noise reducing capabilities. I think it's my only option if I still want to be able to use the windows.

Also, I'll be using Khorns so the ones in the corners won't work for me unless it's beneficial sonic-ally to place any in the corner above the khorns, but I'm thinking probably no
 
Congratulations! That's a great looking setup you've got! Those panels look great! They were the best improvement I've made in my audio system.
 
Love the setup....great work and great result. Your thread pushed me over the edge to finally do this.....I bought the insulation, fabric etc over a year ago and now really want to get it done.

When we get into a different house this year, and I have my dedicated music room, room acoustics will be priority #1 for me. I've played around with various absorption materials in my current house, but my main system is shared with the living room so I dont want to do anything permanate.
Liked your build pics! I will definately use them as a referance when I'm ready to do mine. Thanks!!

You won't be disappointed guys. Please feel free to ask me any questions along the way if you have any. I think my panel design is one of the easiest, quickest and most cost effective to build from all the versions I have seen on YouTube.
 
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Congratulations! That's a great looking setup you've got! Those panels look great! They were the best improvement I've made in my audio system.

Thanks. I think once you realize the sonic improvement they bring, you just want to shout from the rooftops that everyone should be treating their room in some capacity.
 
great progress on your room. I wish some of my gik panels were a nice green or blue to contrast, all black is kind of lame..

fgAlisA.jpg


3 minor things-

You should try bringing out your speakers farther into the room. try even 6 inches. giving the speaker some room to breathe is important- also having a rack between them is not ideal. I would push the rack as far back as it will go and bring the speakers out into the room, play around with the distances

I'm guilty of this too but the ceiling reflections are a big deal.. aim to do those next as they are just as impactful as side wall reflections

I would experiment with diffusion on your rear wall as well as dedicated bass traps. absorption is good but too much may "kill" the room. Even the most anal recording studios will have broadband absorption and diffusers, this is a decent infographic for an ideal situation

I'm curious to see how linear your room is now. investing in a umik-1 or dayton emm6 may prove worthwhile since it seems your as deep down the hole as me...

cheers

setting%20the%20soundstage-diagram.jpg
 
great progress on your room. I wish some of my gik panels were a nice green or blue to contrast, all black is kind of lame..

fgAlisA.jpg


3 minor things-

You should try bringing out your speakers farther into the room. try even 6 inches. giving the speaker some room to breathe is important- also having a rack between them is not ideal. I would push the rack as far back as it will go and bring the speakers out into the room, play around with the distances

I'm guilty of this too but the ceiling reflections are a big deal.. aim to do those next as they are just as impactful as side wall reflections

I would experiment with diffusion on your rear wall as well as dedicated bass traps. absorption is good but too much may "kill" the room. Even the most anal recording studios will have broadband absorption and diffusers, this is a decent infographic for an ideal situation

I'm curious to see how linear your room is now. investing in a umik-1 or dayton emm6 may prove worthwhile since it seems your as deep down the hole as me...

cheers

setting%20the%20soundstage-diagram.jpg

Thanks for the advice and the pics of your set up. It looks great in your room, and it will be even better with some paint.:) Interestingly I was playing around with my room configuration and layout last night as I mentioned in my other thread http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/advice-on-placement-of-ceiling-clouds.769100/.

After lots of different configurations I finally came to the conclusion that ceiling clouds were not a good fit in my room and so ended up with the layout below. I did try the speakers slightly forward and in from the side walls but it didn't have any noticeable effect so I placed them back where they were. For my system this configuration has just the right amount of absorption and reflection which allows plenty of sparkle/life in the music but with a smooth and solid delivery. I may try experimenting with diffusion in the future but for now I feel it is damn near perfect.

Not sure what measurements my room would generate and I am not sure if could go through that acoustic treatment learning curve as the more I read on the subject the less I know:confused:. What I do know is that the small investment I have made has given me so much in return and sounds sublime.

Like with every upgrade, I am going through all my collection again and discovering things that I never heard before.:D

Acoustic Room Layout rev2.jpg
 
@ateal just read through your other thread regarding the ceiling room treatments. It's understandable that it could take the life out of your music

how tall are your ceilings? if they are over 8ft it's probably contributing positively to your sonic performance, lessening the need for aggressive treatments. I know in my room the concrete floor and the <8ft ceiling causes some undesirable interactions.

look into diffusion for your rear wall. perhaps using diffusion on the rear wall in conjunction with the ceiling treatments, you will rebalance the interactions.

also I would contact gik acoustics regarding your issues with the room, their input is as good as gold and the tech support from experts is free

also the umik-1/ dayton emm6 measuring microphones are used to establish a baseline for how your system is across the frequency band, as well as the biggest room modes and peaks that you need to address.

It can also objectively confirm/deny the "improvements" made by playing with the room treatments
 
Glad to see your enjoying listening to the fruits of your labours!

As I added room treatments it was interesting to hear the improvement until
I added the last panel, it deadened the room to much and now sits unused.
 
@ateal just read through your other thread regarding the ceiling room treatments. It's understandable that it could take the life out of your music

how tall are your ceilings? if they are over 8ft it's probably contributing positively to your sonic performance, lessening the need for aggressive treatments. I know in my room the concrete floor and the <8ft ceiling causes some undesirable interactions.

look into diffusion for your rear wall. perhaps using diffusion on the rear wall in conjunction with the ceiling treatments, you will rebalance the interactions.

also I would contact gik acoustics regarding your issues with the room, their input is as good as gold and the tech support from experts is free

also the umik-1/ dayton emm6 measuring microphones are used to establish a baseline for how your system is across the frequency band, as well as the biggest room modes and peaks that you need to address.

It can also objectively confirm/deny the "improvements" made by playing with the room treatments

My ceilings are 9ft, but the sound clouds reduced this to 8' 2". I may look into diffusion at the rear wall but as I am so close to the rear wall in my listening chair it maybe better to stick with absorption?

Maybe I should contact GIK about this diffuser vs insulation option. As for taking actual measurements, I know I should do it but my brain is on overload with my work commitments at the moment and I cannot currently set aside enough time to teach myself acoustic engineering. Maybe towards the end of the year, I'll get into it.
 
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