Necessary to remove tonearm when installing cartridge?

[Emosewa]

Many thanks to all of you for the excellent and insightful comments. I can't thank you enough. If I may, a few more questions and comments.

Having the same cartridge on two good tables that are both setup correctly should produce very close sound quality. The next thing to put a change in the sound is the arm and platter/mat. The Linn is quite a bit different than the SME15 and series 5 arm. The SME is superior in their build of the platter/mat and clamping design.

I will be comparing an older Linn that has not received any upgrades for 15 or 20 years. I'm not prepared to pay the exorbitant prices for Linn upgrades, which will add up to close to the cost of an SME 15. So I will be comparing an older Linn LP12/Ekos (basically a 20 year old turntable) with a new Lyra Delos, to a new SME 15/Series V with the same cartridge.

Do you think they "should produce very close sound quality" or will their be a clearly audible difference -- the type that you can hear in the first 15 minutes of listening? If so, what should I listen for?

Do you recommend any particular LPs and tracks to clearly demonstrate the difference between the two tables and arms? If I can hear a clearly audible difference, and not something really subtle that requires repeated listening, then the decision to buy the SME combination will be easy.

When we get to the arm again it will be no contest, for one thing the Series V is far easier to setup the cartridge accurately.

It appears that most of the posts in this thread do not believe it is necessary to remove any of the arms. Is that your opinion as well with regards to the Series V? If I buy the SME arm it will be new, and I can certainly insist that the cartridge be mounted first before attaching the arm to the table.

But the one part of this that I don't understand is that with either arm, the alignment must be done with the arm on the table, correct? So with either arm, the screws must be tightened with the arm on the table, correct? How exactly does Linn expect proper alignment with the arm off the table?

If you're able to take a clear close-up of your h'shell and cart, it might help.

Done. Hopefully I'm not uploading too large a file, and if so, I apologize in advance. It is an older Archiv. As your described, the leads come out of the cartridge and appear to plug directly into the Ekos arm. I have not yet removed the cartridge, but it appears that the pins are on the Ekos itself.

It's even worse than I thought. Linn is a cult. I'm not saying all Linn owners are cultists (I'm a Linn owner) or all Linn products are lousy — but the advertising (propaganda) and instruction materials proselytize the "All-Linn and Only-Linn" concept and Linn dealers enforce it. Apple is similar in that everything must fit into the "Apple Eco-system".

It is actually worse than many of you are aware. The latest and greatest phono preamp for the Linn Sondek LP12 is not a preamp at all. It is a DIGITAL converter -- a DAC -- and it is installed inside the turntable itself. Then, in order to connect to the new Linn DAC, you must own the other Linn components as it uses their proprietary system. It is ironic that the company that deserves credit for building one of the first high quality analog turntables now builds turntables with a DAC built in. In fairness, Linn still sells analog phono preamps, but their top of the line unit is the DAC. Just look on their web site.

 

[dcmfan]

If so, what should I listen for?

I know you asked this of someone else, but if I can share a thing I've found it might be helpful.

Take a record you know well. Any record will do, but it helps if the music has a lot of things going on.

With better turntables, I find that it is much easier to follow individual elements in the music. It's not always a case of one immediately sounding tremendously better, but the better table makes listening more effortless.

On comparison, I find that I can hear many of the same things on a lesser setup, but it takes more concentration to locate and follow them compared to the better setup.

If I find myself thinking about the performance instead of the recording or the gear, I'm where I want to be.

 

[bimasta]

Judging from the photo, though the leads are attached, it seems the Ekos uses male pins, so installing any standard cartridge will use the standard h'shell leads with female clips at both ends. So that part of it is easy.

It is ironic that the company that deserves credit for building one of the first high quality analog turntables...

This statement shows a lingering Linn-ification in your thinking. They did not "build one of the first high quality analog turntables", far from it. Many did so long before Linn even existed, and many would say those earlier TTs were better. Moreover, there was little or no innovation in Linn's turntable — they certainly "borrowed" many principles from other manufacturers, and some claim Linn outright stole important design points from a client who trusted Linn and so took no precautions to protect himself.

However, all your other comments show an admirable open-mindedess and acceptance of anti-Linn "heresy and sacrilege", so you're well on the way to recovery. The more I hear about Linn, the more convinced I become that, while Linn may make some very good products, it is also a mental disorder. You'll get lots of support here on AK, where many have seen behind the curtain.

I hope this doesn't cause offense, I wrote it tongue-in-cheek.

But only partly.

 

[4-2-7]

First let me start here,Emosewa you don't seem to know much about a table setup and getting everything right with one. If we know where you live we might be able to have someone help you with your tables with hands on. It is something that you should learn if your going to spin records and invest these kind of dollars to do it. If your close to me I'd be glad to help, I do it all the time for others.

Do you think they "should produce very close sound quality" or will their be a clearly audible difference -- the type that you can hear in the first 15 minutes of listening? If so, what should I listen for?

Well maybe, maybe not, the biggest sound change to any table will be a cartridge swap. But we can go on forever about what a tables little nuances might sound like and what your whole system might do with the SQ it gets from a table. Your going to be the best judge with hands on in your system. You have to look at the whole package, as many little components, design technology, the quality of there function in delivering the information out of the grooves to get the end results. But for me and many, it's not all just the SQ we need and want. We also need something that functions very well, aesthetics, isolation from outside forces.

A SOTA Star Sapphire gives me everything I need out of a table, and don't try this with your Linn or SME 15. But it does have the SME Series V arm and a similar cart that your getting.

Do you recommend any particular LPs and tracks to clearly demonstrate the difference between the two tables and arms? If I can hear a clearly audible difference, and not something really subtle that requires repeated listening, then the decision to buy the SME combination will be easy.

You could hear a difference right away but take your time over days, moods and different music. And again it's not all SQ, function and ease of use play a part as well.

It appears that most of the posts in this thread do not believe it is necessary to remove any of the arms. Is that your opinion as well with regards to the Series V?

A cartridge can be attached to any arm mounted on a table. However with my Sumiko Blackbirds and EVO III cartridges and SOTA decks, I have the arm mounted to the arm board and mount the cartridge on the arm off the table. I do this because it's safer and I can sit at a table with good light and comfortable. You have to be very carful handling $1000+ naked body cartridges, not to mention they have no guard for the stylus.

But the one part of this that I don't understand is that with either arm, the alignment must be done with the arm on the table, correct?

They are just asking you to do the physical attachments off the table, screw it on, plugging in the contact wires. Probably to lessen stress to the arm.

So with either arm, the screws must be tightened with the arm on the table, correct?

Yes,

How exactly does Linn expect proper alignment with the arm off the table?

as stated above.

 

[Emosewa]

First let me start here,Emosewa you don't seem to know much about a table setup and getting everything right with one. If we know where you live we might be able to have someone help you with your tables with hands on.

That is correct, but it is due to the method of operation of the Linn dealers I have utilized. Over the years, I asked three Linn dealers if I could watch the removal of the arm and the installation of a cartridge, and they all refused. So I have never seen it done. It is a considerable drive to get to one of the closest Linn dealers, and when he also refused to allow me to watch -- which meant driving all the way out there to drop off the table, and then all the way back to pick it up -- I decided it was time to move to a different manufacturer.

 

[restorer-john]

Well for starters I think most of what Linn says is BS.

 

[restorer-john]

Over the years, I asked three Linn dealers if I could watch the removal of the arm and the installation of a cartridge, and they all refused. So I have never seen it done. It is a considerable drive to get to one of the closest Linn dealers, and when he also refused to allow me to watch -- which meant driving all the way out there to drop off the table, and then all the way back to pick it up -- I decided it was time to move to a different manufacturer.

Great move. Those Linn dealers were absolute clowns.

 

[4-2-7]

That is correct, but it is due to the method of operation of the Linn dealers I have utilized. Over the years, I asked three Linn dealers if I could watch the removal of the arm and the installation of a cartridge, and they all refused.

For starters don't get me wrong here, I don't mean to say anything to offend you, just to get you to think. I guess one could call me a mechanically inclined person, I always have been. Ever since I was a little kid i would grab some tools and take something apart, didn't really need to get somethings back together again. However having the desire to see how things worked you learn what you want to learn. So my whole life I can use my brain to take things apart and as I do so I know how it goes back together. If there is some kind of trick, sequence or measurement to simplify assembly generally reading finds the answer. A human bean made the table and put it together, a human bean is servicing the table. As far as I can tell your a human bean. The only thing stopping you from learning how to work on the table is you.

I decided it was time to move to a different manufacturer.

Then there is no easy way out, you will have to learn about your table and how to set it up right.

I would also say if you already have the Lyra cart and some screw drivers and maybe a allen set start changing the cart. Get yourself some Litz head shell leeds of ebay. We can then help you setup your new cartridge on your Linn table. You might as well start learning now and give up the thought you need someone else to do it for you.

 

[savatage1973]

Then there is no easy way out, you will have to learn about your table and how to set it up right.

This I 100% agree with. Everyone should learn how to set up their own table to their liking. All it takes is a handful of basic tools and PATIENCE. There is no guarantee that a "professional" is going to do a better job than you can, and different people like things set up differently, to their own tastes.

Also--TTs do not travel especially well, and the more delicate the table/arm, the greater the chance knocking it out of alignment or otherwise damaging it in the process. IME, it is always best to set up a TT in the environment where it will be used. I even double-check everything if I am simply moving a table from one room of my house to another.

 

[bimasta]

The whole question of removing an arm to install a cartridge, obviously applies only to fixed-headshell designs. Installing on such arms is big PITA — so little space to work in, everything is awkward to reach, your tools and your fingers are too big, one little slip you're not even aware of and you destroy a multi-$K cartridge. Nerve-racking is a mild description. I know because most of my arms were fixed-HS and I like to try new carts, and rotate from my little collection of favorites.

That may be one reason why Linn says you must not do it — because they've destroyed so many cartridges themselves despite their expertise — the risk is just built into the process. As 4-2-7 notes, removal isn't neccesary but he does it anyway because it's easier — and safer. And to OP, you can do that too with your LP12 (most models): just remove the armboard, no need to dismantle the whole TT.

I used fixed-HS arms for over 20 years because I bought the hype in the audio magazines that removable h'shells degrade the sound so badly you can't even call it Music anymore — unless they're reviewing a removable design, in which case they praise its convenience, with nary a word about degradation. Then I got a TT with swappable h'shells about 6 years ago, it was a linear-tracker and I wanted to explore that, and it was only $5 at a flea market. To my astonishment, it sounded almost as great as my "super arms". I heard the difference but it was so minor that, after a couple of LPs, I didn't care. It's the only TT I've used since I got it. It's also full-auto, just push Play, and I'm addicted to the ease of use. Why not, when there's no significant SQ loss?

That leaves me with two "super" TT/arms sitting on the shelf. It's frustrating to have that much unutilized financial value going to waste, and my inner-audiophile harangues me "How dare you use a $5 POS when you already have so much better?!!" But they're not so much better. I can't ever see myself going back.

 

[Gibsonian]

Linn by chance a limb of the Scientology community?

Some crazy cats there, I'll likely not go there unless one falls in my lap.

 

[bimasta]

Linn by chance a limb of the Scientology community?

I wanted to make the same comparison, but chickened out. Good for you, Gibsonian.

 

[4-2-7]

That leaves me with two "super" TT/arms sitting on the shelf. It's frustrating to have that much unutilized financial value going to waste, and my inner-audiophile harangues me "How dare you use a $5 POS when you already have so much better?!!" But they're not so much better. I can't ever see myself going back.

I always find it interesting when people leave out naming anything and state their comparison, learning and beliefs on dollars in their comments. There is nothing put on the line, nothing to be rebutted, tested or challenged by others. It's perfectly fine for people to like whatever they like no matter the cost. However it's vague and generalizing and pretty useless, on the heals of internet myth.

Supper arms? financially a high value table set up? $5.00 table?
I know you mentioned having or had a TD-125 and a Linn arm but I wouldn't put that at a high value table, more of a consumer and todays good entry level for an avid enthusiast.

I know most the tables I'v had over the past 20 years, older than that some I'v forgotten. I remember most the prices things cost, I know why I liked one over another and why I no longer have them. I also know why I have some not in used but still own them. I can get into that long list, naming names and with cost from $2.00 yard sales to $8000 decks.

I also know you get what you pay for, even though buying used you get a bit more.

So in reading a post like this I see agenda only, used cheap vintage tables are just as good as high dollar decks and arms. The only difference is the cost, hype and the Kool-Aid drinkers.

I don't drink and I find that not to be true.

 

[4-2-7]

SME 15 with Series V arm with the same Lyra Delos cartridge.

Is there a reason your looking at the SME 15?
If it's because it's aesthetically pleasing to you and your dream table that's all fine. If it's because you have a dealer local to you and that's what he has at your price point that's fine to.

I meant to go further with my first post but got side tracked. I keep mentioning that buying a table is not just for sound quality. For one thing as we get up there with better and better table the SQ can be really close.

So we also need table that are practical and do other function we need. With the type cartridge you have or getting and many others like it, like my Sumiko Blackbird. I also have a Michell Gyro SE, the problem is there s a unprotected high dollar cartridge out in mid air.



The SME 15 uses this hokey wire guard and it even looks like a after thought.



IMHO this design table is kind impractical and there is alway a feeling that's uncomfortable around using them.

I'm a lot more comfortable with my cartridge sitting over a conventional plinth where nothing will get under it..

 

[4-2-7]

While the SME Series V arm with the same Lyra Delos cartridge is some bad ass stuff to have and use, maybe a little more thinking what your end game table might be.

You may not know what's out there at you budget but we can help.

For me my go to table is a SOTA Star Sapphire, there is one of them in the vid I posted above, you might want to take a look at what they have.

 

[Emosewa]

Many thanks! I will look into the Sota as well as other alternatives.

 

[Beobloke]

That is correct, but it is due to the method of operation of the Linn dealers I have utilized. Over the years, I asked three Linn dealers if I could watch the removal of the arm and the installation of a cartridge, and they all refused. So I have never seen it done. It is a considerable drive to get to one of the closest Linn dealers, and when he also refused to allow me to watch -- which meant driving all the way out there to drop off the table, and then all the way back to pick it up -- I decided it was time to move to a different manufacturer.

I must admit, like many others, I have no issues with the products themselves but what grinds my gears about Linn is this mythology they manage to have set up surrounding their products; the LP12 especially.

The LP12 is a wooden box, a couple of pieces of metal and three springs. It does not require a Masters in Mechanical Engineering or a Degree in Mystical Force Alignment to set it up!