Need some Kenwood expertise

Discussion in 'Kenwood-Trio/Kensonic-Accuphase' started by 6 walls, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    It's quite simple really, the reason manufacturers give specs at rated output, they're better.

    So, taking this into account, in theory, the 35watt amp would be it's most linear as it approaches 35 watts, the 200 watt amp as it approaches 200, etc.

    These numbers do not represent maximum output as you keep claiming I'm stating, which I'm not, these are the manufacturer's "rated" outputs, nothing to do with "music output" "dynamic output" etc.

    Actually I should qualify the above with most SS amps, tube amplifiers are a different breed, also some early SS amps and why JGH was initially so enamored with the Dynaco ST 120. It became more linear at lower output mimmicking the tube amps of the era when driving the super sensitive speakers of the time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018

     

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  2. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

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    996
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    Uhh, the tendency to provide performance measurements at rated output is a function of FTC standards, for the most part. Distortion measurements will actually be better at output levels well below RMS rating, and MUCH below "dynamic" or "music" output (neither of which have a well-standardized definition). This is one of the main reasons the FTC standard specifies measurement at RMS power in the first place (yes, I understand that RMS power is a convolution).

    Harmonic distortion goes up with voltage (output level). In AB amps, the curve is initially downward, but starts at much higher lever. However, it quickly assumes the same upward shape as with a Class A amp.

    I tend to believe that IM distortion is more important with a real-world music signal (vs test tones). It also rises with amplitude.

    I've not claimed anything about maximum output, nor made any claims regarding comments you've made about same .I have referred several times to RATED output. Certainly an amp can deliver more power than its rated output, albeit with grossly more distortion. Regardless, distortions generally increase as an amplifier gets closer to its maximum output (be that its RMS rating or some other version).

    Still curious, though, about this statement you made:

    At any given volume level you're turning the smaller amp up just that much more to achieve the same output.

    While it seems we are going in a circle here, I will give it one more try. What do you mean by this comment? As I see it, at any given volume level, output from either of the OP's amps (or any other amp, for that matter) will be exactly the same. Do you disagree?
     
  3. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    If I'm understanding your question, you're saying the less powerful amp isn't closer to its rated output than a more powerful amp at the same output?

    And why do you think the manufacturer gives such rated output, again that's where it's specs are the best. The manufacturer gets to claim what the stated output is, then attach the specs at the output "they've" chosen. Or are you claiming a manufacturer would knowingly choose to rate it's amplifier at a rating where the amps specs would be inferior? Then attach "those" specs? ROFLMAO
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  4. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    What I think is that you are being intentionally obtuse. The manufacturer does not get to claim any output rating. The FTC specifies that calculation, at least for amps sold in the U.S. Generally, distortion levels are lower at lower output.

    It is apparent that you will not, or cannot, explain your claim that the lower-rated amp is delivering more power than the higher-rated amp at a given level of speaker ouput. Of course it is not. A 300 watt amp will be delivering the same power as a 30 watt amp at equal output from the speakers (unless, of course, the lower powered amp is clipping - which is more likely to be the case than for the 300 watt amp, since the 30 watt amp is, by definition, operating more closely to its rated output; that is, the output at which it begins to clip).
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  5. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

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    1,698
    Can you show where I made such a claim? You need to read more closely.
     
  6. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018

     

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  7. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    And the OP by now has probably has packed it in and headed for the hills... I hope this thread was at least a little helpful to him.
     
  8. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    The "same" output, you're still reading something that's not there. Done here as you're unwilling to read what's in front of you without trying to read between the lines, or just not able to understand.
     
  9. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    Hmmm. I'm reading exactly what you posted...and yes, I don't understand it...neither literally nor between the lines...which is why I asked you to explain your meaning. You quite clearly stated that one must turn up the lower powered amp to get the same output from the speakers. This is simply not true, nor is it true that an amp pushed closer to its limits provides better sound quality than one with more headroom.
     
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  10. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    I think that his question as regards the basis for higher-powered amps was answered pretty clearly. No one can answer his question as to why his KR-6600 receiver does not sound as good to him as the other.

    As for good technicians in St. Louis, perhaps he could start a thread with that subject in the title...otherwise he will have to hope that someone in St. Louis who knows a good tech there just happens to peruse this thread.

    Glen (echowars) is in Lee's Summit, about 220 miles from STL, and appears to still be dealing with some life-changing events. He is an extremely good tech, but I don't know if he is taking on new projects at the current time.
     
  11. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    Optimum Sound at Optimum Levels

    Tube power amplifiers sound their best at the volumes at which you actually want to enjoy them.

    Just like digital systems, solid state amplifiers measure and sound their worst at low levels, and have their best performance at close to their maximum output levels where no one ever actually plays them.

    For normal use with normal music at normal levels, most of us enjoy our music at about 1mW ~ 1W long-term RMS, or about 0.01W ~ 10W peak. For most applications, a 30 WPC amplifier is about right.

    What's sad is that the few consumer magazines that try to publish lab results usually only plot performance down to 100mW, when in fact the most relevant power range at which we enjoy most amplifiers is from 1mW to 1W. What happens below 100mW is extremely important; that's right where most of our music lives!

    http://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm
     

     

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  12. EvanF

    EvanF AK Member

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    I can do work for you, also the cheapest guy around. Less experience, however. Recap? Done a lot of those.
     
  13. Toprank

    Toprank New Member

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    5
    Location:
    Pensacola, FL
    Round and round.... Speaker efficiency should have something to do with sound from low or high wattage output. Probably covered in a different forum. I'd suggest simply the two different amps are actually preforming at different levels of... lets say condition.
     
  14. spark1

    spark1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    Assuming you are referring to sensitivity (rather than efficiency), and assuming that neither amp is clipping; at a given SPL, a given set of speakers will draw precisely the same power from a 20 watt amp as from a 200 watt amp (or 2000 watt amp). Since it is running closer to its limits, the 20 watt amp may be producing a higher (though not necessarily material) level of distortiion.
     
  15. Toprank

    Toprank New Member

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    5
    Location:
    Pensacola, FL
     
  16. Toprank

    Toprank New Member

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    5
    Location:
    Pensacola, FL
    As you earlier suggested, "Agree or not, the argument for higher power amps is a function of speaker sensitivity, room size, distance from speakers and headroom." Hence the personal perception for/of "the schveet spot".
    As for 6 Walls dilemma, I still suggest the two different amps are preforming at different from levels of condition.
     

     

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  17. stevepaige

    stevepaige New Member

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    Location:
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    I think that the point the other guy was trying to make was that the volume had to be turned up higher as a percentage of its rated power. Twenty watts of delivered output from a 35 watt receiver vice a 100 watt receiver. The volume knob will be turned a little more clockwise on the 35 watt unit.
     
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  18. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

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    1,698
    You got it, thought I was pretty susinct in my explanation but I guess not.
     
  19. rjsalvi

    rjsalvi Active Member

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    495
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Your logic is correct, but it would depend on the taper of the volume pot. Audio tapers can vary. IOW, it's possible for a lesser powered amp/receiver, to sound louder than a greater powered amp/receiver, with both volume controls in the same position, e.g. 9:00...IF the lesser powered amp has a more aggressive taper. Taper simply refers to the distribution of resistance -- as a percentage of the total resistance -- of a pot's rotation. When volume pots are cranked all the way open, the resistance is zero.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  20. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    The position of the knob is irrelevant, the less powerful amp is closer to it's maximum output to drive the same speakers to the same decibel level as the more powerful amp plain and simple.

    Why is this so hard to understand, it's not Mandarin Chinese.
     

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