Need Vandersteen 2C Woofer Help

MFaughn

MFaughn

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
I very cool guy just gave me a pair of Vandersteen 2C. They've got issues though. One definitely has both woofer with VC rub. The 10" won't play at all. The other one sounds OK in the garage with a crappy receiver driving it so it *might* be alright but I'm not certain of it. I am pretty sure the mids and tweets are alright on both.

The woofers are Vifa P21WO-15. Obviously this is an OEM part number. Anybody know if anything else will sound right in that spot? Any of the other P21 variants?

As for the 10" finding a replacement is moot because they have a lot of added mass on the cone and I'm guessing only Vandersteen knows what they've done.

I was wondering if there was any hope for repair using the cones and baskets I have? I don't think it is a matter of surrounds and spiders but I am far from an expert on these things. Any hope that someplace like MillerSound could make 'em right?

And on the off chance that somebody has some loose drivers that'll fix me up and that they are willing to part with I am all ears.

Thanks for any words of advice, insight, sarcasm, or even nonesense.
 
MFaughn said:
I very cool guy just gave me a pair of Vandersteen 2C. They've got issues though. One definitely has both woofer with VC rub. The 10" won't play at all. The other one sounds OK in the garage with a crappy receiver driving it so it *might* be alright but I'm not certain of it. I am pretty sure the mids and tweets are alright on both.

The woofers are Vifa P21WO-15. Obviously this is an OEM part number. Anybody know if anything else will sound right in that spot? Any of the other P21 variants?

As for the 10" finding a replacement is moot because they have a lot of added mass on the cone and I'm guessing only Vandersteen knows what they've done.

I was wondering if there was any hope for repair using the cones and baskets I have? I don't think it is a matter of surrounds and spiders but I am far from an expert on these things. Any hope that someplace like MillerSound could make 'em right?

And on the off chance that somebody has some loose drivers that'll fix me up and that they are willing to part with I am all ears.

Thanks for any words of advice, insight, sarcasm, or even nonesense.
Click to expand...

Good speakers. Have you tried calling Vandersteen? They are certainly worth an investment.
 
Talked to Vandersteen after posting. $180 to rebuild the 8" and $121 for the 10". Gonna have to wait on that for a while.
 
MFaughn said:
I very cool guy just gave me a pair of Vandersteen 2C. They've got issues though. One definitely has both woofer with VC rub. The 10" won't play at all. The other one sounds OK in the garage with a crappy receiver driving it so it *might* be alright but I'm not certain of it. I am pretty sure the mids and tweets are alright on both.

The woofers are Vifa P21WO-15. Obviously this is an OEM part number. Anybody know if anything else will sound right in that spot? Any of the other P21 variants?

As for the 10" finding a replacement is moot because they have a lot of added mass on the cone and I'm guessing only Vandersteen knows what they've done.

I was wondering if there was any hope for repair using the cones and baskets I have? I don't think it is a matter of surrounds and spiders but I am far from an expert on these things. Any hope that someplace like MillerSound could make 'em right?

And on the off chance that somebody has some loose drivers that'll fix me up and that they are willing to part with I am all ears.

Thanks for any words of advice, insight, sarcasm, or even nonesense.
Click to expand...

I would try rotating the 8" 180 degrees to see if the spider has just settled a bit over the years. The other possibility is that they were over driven and the voice coil has deformed due to overheating. Check the DC resistance of any drivers with issues to get a rough idea of the voice coil condition.
Vandersteen claims that the 10" (the version in the 2Ci anyway) has a special spider designed to support the very heavy cone. Again, you might be able to rotate the 10" if it has not been grossly overdriven. Also check the 10" voice coil to see if it is open since it could be a crossover issue causing it to have no output.

Where are you located? Since you can save on shipping if you have someone local work on them.
 
Nah, the two bad ones are very severely screwed up. Pretty sure both voice coils are beyond hope. My guess is that they were overdriven. The other 10" might be alright with a rotation -- time will tell. As it was the 10" had the midrange buzz that has been described elsewhere.
 
MFaughn said:
The woofers are Vifa P21WO-15. Obviously this is an OEM part number. Anybody know if anything else will sound right in that spot? Any of the other P21 variants?
Click to expand...

I reverse engineered and roughly cloned the 2Ci many years ago and tested many 8" drivers looking for one as close as possible to the original. I tried a paper cone SEAS, and the catalog Vifa P21 of the day and they were close, but the Vandersteen version had a bit more Xmax than the stock one. None of these are available today as far as I know.

I have a feeling that this would be a good low cost replacement that should work reasonably well, but I have not tried it.
I am aware that the original had a poly cone and this has a wool cone, but they both have a smooth response so I don't
expect a problem:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/silver-flute-w20rc38-08-8-wool-cone/

Obviously, it would be best to get an exact replacement.

You might try Mensicus for the repairs, I have heard good things about their work.
Ask them how they will do the repairs in order to maintain original specs.
Most shops just use something close that they have in the parts bin.
 
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I wonder how much it matters to get things do exact specs. Probably more than a little bit given the crossover was tuned to a specific set of drivers. On the other hand the bass drivers should matter the least (right?) and those Silver Flutes are 20% of the money that Vandersteen wants.
 
Yes, I would agree that, generally, a woofer in a 3-way is going to be less critical in terms of cone breakup modes or other odd behavior since it is mostly used below the range of serious breakup modes. The lower the crossover point and the steeper the slope the better. It is still important to match the (DC resistance, inductance) input impedance, Fs, motor strength, cone mass, and Xmax of the driver. Sensitivity falls out of all of this and it is less important with the 2C since there are mid and tweeter level controls. I did not check everyone of the parameters but it looks to be in the ball park.
 
I was mistaken, the catalog Vifa P21WO20-08 is still available but under the ScanSpeak name:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/scanspeak-classic-p21wo20-8-woofer-poly-cone/

It is unfortunate that the company decided to reassign the manufacturer's names
for many of the products. Have to wonder how many sales they are loosing because
of this.

This driver is very close to the custom Vifa used in the 2Ci but it has about 1mm
less Xmax. However, I don't think it is worth the price.
 
Am I missing something? my understanding is that the 10"is a passive radiator, so will not function without a healthy active 8" woofer.
 
blvdre said:
Am I missing something? my understanding is that the 10"is a passive radiator, so will not function without a healthy active 8" woofer.
Click to expand...

The 10" is active...but I believe it may be acoustically coupled to the 8" so there is interaction between the two (much like you get from a passive radiator).
 
tomlinmgt said:
The 10" is active...but I believe it may be acoustically coupled to the 8" so there is interaction between the two (much like you get from a passive radiator).
Click to expand...

I'm working on a pair of orirganl 2C also. I thought the 10" was passive. Now I'm getting even more excited :yes:
 
Interesting. Are they wire out of pahse to each other so when one is going in the other out? Otherwise wouldn't they be fighting each other :scratch2:
 
MFaughn said:
I very cool guy just gave me a pair of Vandersteen 2C. They've got issues though. One definitely has both woofer with VC rub. The 10" won't play at all. The other one sounds OK in the garage with a crappy receiver driving it so it *might* be alright but I'm not certain of it. I am pretty sure the mids and tweets are alright on both.

The woofers are Vifa P21WO-15. Obviously this is an OEM part number. Anybody know if anything else will sound right in that spot? Any of the other P21 variants?

As for the 10" finding a replacement is moot because they have a lot of added mass on the cone and I'm guessing only Vandersteen knows what they've done.

I was wondering if there was any hope for repair using the cones and baskets I have? I don't think it is a matter of surrounds and spiders but I am far from an expert on these things. Any hope that someplace like MillerSound could make 'em right?

And on the off chance that somebody has some loose drivers that'll fix me up and that they are willing to part with I am all ears.

Thanks for any words of advice, insight, sarcasm, or even nonesense.
Click to expand...

Richard Vandersteen has companies like Vifa make some of the drivers for Model 2s for him, but they were modified to his specifications. When he came out with the 2Ci he had the 8" cone made out of a propietary material which he patented, which is one reason the 2Cis sound quite a bit different from the 2Cs. It used to say on Vandersteen's old website that the OEM speakers he used were altered to his specs, so I don't think replacements from Vifa will sound the same.
I love and swear by Vandersteen speakers. I think they are, for the money, the best speaker you can buy. Period. But my advice is to cut your losses, and not put money into original Model 2s. Put it in a newer model. Richard Vandersteen made a lot of changes and upgrades with each new model. I've owned 2Cs, 2Cis, 2Ces, and now 2Ce Signatures. Each one has been an improvement, and my 2Ce Sigs are a dream. I'm in Los Angeles, and Model 2Cs sell out here all the time for $300 and 2Cis, a terrific speaker, for $400. You start fixing those Model 2s you'll exceed 500 bucks in no time, and when you're done all you'll have is an old pair of Model 2s that won't sound near as good as later models.
 
Interesting and varied opinions. Some prefer the older model and some newer. I have a pair of original 2C's that I'm refurb'ing. I don't plan on spening $500 but I bet I'll have $300 in them before I'm finished.

Mybe it's because I'm getting old but I tend to prefer older versus newer. I've also read that the 2C's are easier to drive. Stereophile heralded them for not making you buy a new amplifier just to match your speakers. They said you can druve them with your receiver till you upgrade to separates.
 
The 2Ci does not have enough head room for my taste. It has a polyfuse thermal cutout for the acoustic coupler that trips after about 3 minutes into a bass heavy track at a satisfying level. I don't think the 2 or 2C has the thermal cutout.

I reverse engineered the 2Ci and I had the catalog Vifa driver side by side with the custom Vandersteen. The only visible difference was that the rubber edge was perhaps 1mm wider on the custom unit. I also measured the T&S parameters and they were close, don't remember exactly right now. It was clear that they were built on the same frame, magnets were the same, cone and dust cap looked to be the same. They even sounded the same until you pushed them hard. The custom unit would take a tad more level in the bass, but usually the acoustic coupler cut out after a few minutes anyway when pushed that hard.

The 2Ci has a drastically different midrange from Peerless. It looks
like this one:
http://meniscusaudio.com/peerless-821615-p-464.html
 
shacky said:
Interesting. Are they wire out of pahse to each other so when one is going in the other out? Otherwise wouldn't they be fighting each other :scratch2:
Click to expand...

It is interesting that at the acoustic coupler tuning frequency the woofer should not move much since the coupler causes the woofer cone to see a low impedance looking into the box. The coupler does the work at the tuning frequency. I don't recall the relative phase, I'd expect them to be in phase, since they work together (in phase) above the coupler tuning frequency but there is a cap feeding the woofer and an inductor feeding the coupler so you'd have to take their phase shift into account. Keele describes the bass system in his Audio magazine review.

It can be seen here in the input impedance curve and Figure 5 that the coupler is tuned to about 45 Hz:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-2c-loudspeaker-measurements
 
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