New Audio Technica Stylus on old cartridge body

[rolex452]

I'm replacing the microline stylus on my (now discontinued) Audio Technica 440MLB cartridge. Their new replacement cartridge/stylus model is now the "VM540ML". As you know, AT "VM type" cartridge bodies are very much alike, and you can swap stylii from one "VM" body to another. The new microline stylus I'm purchasing for my old cartridge body now requires a tracking force of 1.8 to 2.2 grams! The old stylus could track at 1.0 to 1.8 grams. I've never (since my first turntable in 1971) tracked at 2.00 grams before (0.75 to 1.5 grams tops was the norm). Why the increase in tracking force needed with this new microline replacement stylus (model VMN40ML)? What about groove wear on the record now? Thanks for any input.

 

[tubewade]

There is no difference in the compliance specification between the styli so my expectation is that AT is trying to address the "thin sound" issues that some people have reported with this stylus/cartridge. Many people already ran the VTF that high and reported a fuller sound. If it were mine I'd still use 1.4 or 1.5, whatever you did before. The groove wear is so low that the difference caused by the difference in tracking force is insignificant.

 

[lini]

r452: One would really need at least one exemplar of each to compare 'em side-by-side. Maybe the angle of the diamond mount or respectively the cantilever bend at the front has been altered a bit, so that it now takes a higher tracking force to reach the optimal SRA...

And I'd also say you needn't really worry about the slight increase in terms of wear, given that the ML belongs to the line-contact-variants with very large major radius.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[rolex452]

Several days before posting my question, I wrote to Audio-Technica about it. I received their reply today:

Answer:
“Thank you for your inquiry. The tracking force should probably remain the same for the AT440MLB, although you may want to experiment with setting it a bit heavier.”

First, I want to thank both Tubewade and Lini for their informative and helpful replies, and you were both right! To this oldtimer (when tracking at one gram or less was the thing to do), I now realize that the (A-T recommended) stylus force of 1.8 to 2.2 grams is no big deal with today's modern stylii and won't wear out my records. I'm coming into the 21st century now, and will boldly increase the VMN40ML stylus force to a (ha ha)...colossal 1.8 grams for now. Thanks again for your help!

 

[RonniB]

Being a die-hard Audio Technica fan, I've managed to obtain spare stylii for all my Shibata, line contact, and micro-line carts. Thus far, I've found 1.5 grams to be a happy medium for tracking/sound quality and not drive myself crazy looking for the "sweet spot du jour" of my old ears. Soon, I'll be adding an ATN155lc stylus to my AT140lc and hope the 1.5g will keep the beryllium cantilever happy.

just my $0.02

 

[vwestlife]

“Thank you for your inquiry. The tracking force should probably remain the same for the AT440MLB, although you may want to experiment with setting it a bit heavier.”

Probably? Experiment with it?

They made the equipment and even they don't know!

 

[malden]

Probably? Experiment with it?

They made the equipment and even they don't know!

There are two variables that are hard to predict and would have some impact on the tracking force for a particular stylus, i.e., tone-arm mass and bearing quality.

 

[rolex452]

Following up on my original post: I received and installed the new AT VMN40ML Microline stylus on my AT440MLB cartridge body (body is only a year old, BTW). All normal adjustments/alignments for the cartridge headshell mounting were done properly, the tonearm is properly adjusted, the turntable is level. I decided to "cheat" a bit (with all of this confustion about stylus force for this new stylus), and start at 1.5 grams. WRONG! As member Tubewade pointed out, "the thin sound" was an understatement. I thought I was listening to a 1960's phonograph with a ceramic cartridge/sapphire needle. I increased the weight to 1.6 grams, and some of the sound returned (and volume too). I increased it to 1.8 grams (the recommended minimum), and most, but not all the sound (bass, midrange) returned, and darn, does that new stylus accentuate the higher frequency sound! But still, the sound is a bit "hollow and thin". I like the sound from my elliptical stylus cartridges better than this one. The original 440MLB stylus sounded better than this one, and this is supposed to be an improved version. I'm not liking this new stylus (I hope it sounds better when broken in). Thanks again for your input!

 

[vwestlife]

Audio-Technica recommends a 2.0 gram tracking force (acceptable range 1.8 - 2.2g) for the
VM540ML cartridge that comes with that stylus: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/e7a3d4bc8b248b64/index.html

As is often said, the maximum tracking force is what the engineers who designed the cartridge actually recommend, and then the company's marketing department comes up with the minimum tracking force to make it look better.

 

[malden]

@rolex452, what turntable are you using?

 

[rolex452]

Hello vwestlife, thanks for your reply, it is appreciated. I was fully intending to START at 2.0 grams (the recommended "middle" stylus force), but then someone at A-T says "The tracking force should probably remain the same for the AT440MLB, although you may want to experiment with setting it a bit heavier.” This threw everything out of whack...if the VM cartridge bodies are so similar (AT440MLB and the new VM540ML), why tell me to leave it as it was for the old stylus, maybe a little heavier? At 1.4 grams (the original tracking force I used), the tonearm may very well have slipped off the record. As you suggest, I should bump this up to at least 2.0 grams. Thank you!

 

[rolex452]

@rolex452, what turntable are you using?

An antique Marantz 6300 direct drive, in near mint condition. Major adjustments like stylus force, anti-skate, vertical tracking angle, etc. are done manually, no "dial-in" stuff. It still keeps perfect speed on 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. It serves me well enough. Thanks for asking!

 

[malden]

I have a Technics SL 1800 MK2 direct drive turntable, to me, regardless of the cartridge or stylus, it sounds thin compared to my belt drive or idler drive turntables. I'm not sure why that is but it's something to think about.

Do you have access to another turntable that you can mount the cartridge in?

 

[rolex452]

I have a Technics SL 1800 MK2 direct drive turntable, to me, regardless of the cartridge or stylus, it sounds thin compared to my belt drive or idler drive turntables. I'm not sure why that is but it's something to think about.

Do you have access to another turntable that you can mount the cartridge in?

Actually, no. None of my friends own turntables anymore (or CD players for that matter), but I've owned a number of cartridges for this turntable over the past 41 years (yes, I bought it new), and this stylus (my second Microline, the first being on the 440MLB), is not sounding all that hot. But as I mentioned earlier, tomorrow I'm going to bump the stylus force up to 2.0 grams. I hope that works, as I'm not too keen on going much over that. I'll keep you posted, thanks!

 

[jusmee]

I'd like to reassure you that 2 grams is NOT a problem. I have a few carts that run well at 2.5 grams. I have never seen or heard any damage from them.

As for the AT440mlb - well I have an AT440mla, and also think it is thin sounding. I will try it at a heavier tracking force now after hearing many reports that it will sound better. I have to say, I am wondering if the change in sound is due to changing SRA due to the suspension riding a lot lower, and hence the cantilever is at a different angle to the record surface.

 

[jusmee]

OK, after a quick test of the AT440mla at 2 grams, firstly, the suspension rides VERY low for an AT cart (low like some Ortofons ). Secondly, no, it still sounds disappointingly too thin.

 

[Grbluen]

OK, after a quick test of the AT440mla at 2 grams, firstly, the suspension rides VERY low for an AT cart (low like some Ortofons ). Secondly, no, it still sounds disappointingly too thin.

Try adding mass at the headshell, and resetting the tracking force. Maybe a half gram at a time. This trick always works for me.

 

[jusmee]

Try adding mass at the headshell, and resetting the tracking force. Maybe a half gram at a time. This trick always works for me.

Actually, I have already previously tried it with a high mass headshell with no success. I guess it goes back in the drawer. I have plenty of other carts I like better, and use most of the time.

 

[Garven]

I recall reading a reply somewhere (IIRC on the AT site) from someone at AT about these new VM cartridges and he stated that they increased the recommended VTF because testing resulted in improved sound and they also increased the stiffness of the rubber mounting to compensate. This particular person mentioned that the market especially in Japan was focused on ultra low VTF but their tests indicated that the increase was better.

As for wear as has been mentioned on here, the large side radius on a line contact will actually result in less wear. In fact, 2g with a line contact will result in less wear than 1-1.5g with an elliptical. Heck, even a conical at 5g like the Shure SC35C results in less wear than an elliptical at 1.5g (Google mathematician Michael Gerzon's comments).

 

[rolex452]

Hello again everybody. I've been reading all of your great posts, and the input is appreciated. I increased the VTF to 2.00 grams for this "VMN40ML" Audio Technica replacement stylus: It still does not sound good at all: a hollow (and a bit raspy) sound with much less bass and midrange than the former AT440MLB stylus, or my other .3 x .7 elliptical stylii. I have another A-T cartridge, the lower priced AT100E (now discontinued also), and I bought an extra new stylus for it just in case of an "accident". I put that elliptical stylus on the 440MLB body (it is virtually the same as the AT100E body), and it sounds SO MUCH better. I'm sorry to be so negative, but either the new microline stylus is defective, or its just not my cup of tea. Also, I've gone back to 1.5 grams with the ATN100E stylus: it sounds just fine. If anybody else out there has had trouble with this new line of A-T cartridges/stylii, please let me know. Thanks again!