New Custom PhonoCartridges

OldADC

Active Member
I am wondering if, given my old days as a cartridge designer (ADC OmniPivot and Astrion as well as the LMF Tonearm and 3001 Turntable), if there is any interest/market for custom handbuilt cartridges these days. I have touched base with some old suppliers for cantilever, diamonds, high gauge number magnet wire and the like and can get the materials together. Does anyone think is it worthwhile to play with these creatures again? It might be personally entertaining but I am wondering where folks buy a cartridge these days if they are still into LPs, what they think a rational price point is, and the general state of interest for analog revival.

Any and all comments more than welcome. Thanks
 
Price, selection and reputation would be the principal drivers here. Is recreating an unobtainium piece possible at a reasonable price point? I for one would like to see the equivalent of an original AT20SS needle in boron for under $300, or a 15Sa needle w/ tapered cantilever and nude Shibata for $200. It's a bummer fitting bonded rocks to these old gems....

If this is strictly about MC carts, you'd have to have something distinguishing yourself from an already diverse field. As most of the esoteric models are already hand made they are not far from custom, if not one-off.

Interesting concept though. Let us know your progress.
 
You should ask guys who are already in the business. The closest would probably be be Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith, but there are others like A J Van Den Hul. You could chose to start out by repairing and modifying, which is part of Peter's business, and what he concentrated on before he jumped in with his own line. Or you could offer a couple of models of stock cartridges as a starting approach. Just jumping in as a custom cartridge builder without either being a rebuilder or having a stock line first seems difficult to me. How would customers know if your proposed cartridges are any good?

There is plenty of business, and room for everyone. Peter and every other good cartridge craftsman is overbooked. You just have to come up with a logical way into the business to establish a reputation and get a set of interested customers.
 
Yes, think there's probably a small/niche market. I doubt that trying to undercut the prices of people like Ortofon would be a good strategy (though some of their prices are astronomical), but offering a hand-made product at a premium price always attracts a market. I think it would take a while to get established but if you're semi-retired or have another income you can take the time to build your reputation.
 
IMO what the market could really use is a high quality low mass arm that would be roughly in the price of the Rega. With a few esoteric exceptions, people are left scrounging for LMFs (which I have and use daily, thank you) Black Widows and the like.

As you no doubt know, there is a resurgent interest in the high compliance cartridges of the 70's, but a dearth of new arms to use them with. Just my $0.02
 
I strongly agree with vinyl1 and rothwellaudi. The niche market is there, the main problems are related to marketing. As I am sure you are aware, there are relatively inexpensive cartridges which are rebadged (and perhaps slightly tweaked) which are sold at high prices to the "high end" consumer. This happens because of marketing, not product excellence. If you could cost effectively manufacture a cartridge which competes sonically with the higher end "name brand" cartridges, you would probably still need to get a very positive review in a couple of the widely read audiophile magazines to sell more than a small number. Additionally you would need to Schmooze and "gift" writers, buy ads in magazines, build a web presence, demonstrate at shows, and do all the things the successful companies have done to get where they are.
The higher end audio business today is, in my opinion, unfortunately mostly about business not, great product.
I have a good friend whose system sounds better than most 50K systems I have listened to. It violates many of the audiophile myths (he uses Behringer crossovers and Ashly pro audio amps) but sounds breathtaking. He has about $ 3000 invested and this includes an excellent analog front end. The moral: A quality product means little in and of itself in audioland, success depends on other factors.
Despite all I have said above, I wish you well if you do decide to go ahead with making some.
Jay
 
I would have to say.......that the money is located in the moving coil sector today. AK is a bit different in its demographics than a lot of other audio sites. And there is a definite interest in moving magnet and moving iron designs that are high compliance on AK. But I don't think that this interest extends into the rest of the market place. Currently Grado offers a relatively high compliance cartridge, and Soundsmith could build one for customers also. I could be wrong but it doesn't seem people are beating a path to Peters business for this type of cartridge. Part of it could be the price. One thing to consider about the AK site, is that the majority of the members are frugal, a nice way of saying cheap. If the cartridge can come in at under $150 they would be all for it. But for custom hand built products that does not seem likely. But once you get enough traction throughout all the countries this hobby involves, there might be enough business to keep things interesting. But I personally don't see it as a viable business model for someone looking to generate a steady and significant cash flow.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
You don,t come across many ex cartridge designers/builders these day,s although the ones around are
often held in somewhat high regard.

It might be personally entertaining but I am wondering where folks buy a cartridge these days if they are still into LPs,

Re your comment above I get the impression this endeavor might be a sideline of sorts.
As stated previously there are very few people doing restoration and considering the at times longish
turn around times an opportunity to get your name out there and break back into the market is IMHO
a golden opportunity.That said maybe that's not your cup O tea.

Contacting some of the current players Sound Smith, Andy or Jonathan Carr etc might give you some state of the current market.

Good luck in your endeavor!
 
In the OPs position I think I might contact some of the current players, especially those with backlog, and possibly offer to step in and help out in whatever field I was best at,,,,,,,, gets my hat back in the ring a bit while I get a feel for the market.
 
As with most anything now a days word of mouth is a great way to get interest in a product. Finding one or more people with a high dollar turntable willing to try your cartridges against well known brands and give a review, perhaps on you tube will attract attention if it's worthy of buying. If it gets a good review I'm sure others will
jump on board. Good luck
 
Many, many thanks for all of your inputs. I think I shall meander around a couple of them for the sake of good conversation with you all. This seems a fine group of folks with well considered thoughts, opinions, and suggestions.

First, with respect to all the positive comments surrounding Stanton/Pickering designs; when I went to work at ADC, the VP of Engineering was John Keuhn. He has recently joined ADC after having left his VP Engr position and chief designer for Walter Stanton. Apparently there was a spat with an aging Stanton and by afternoon, John was moving to ADC. The designs you have praised were his designs and he became my mentor and tutor on cartridge design. John hired me into ADC and was my practical training in engineering, design for production, and creativity. That ties my designs back to the thinking and wisdom that underlie the Stanton designs.

The above also explains my complete understanding on the comments above with respect to moving coil, moving iron, and moving magnet designs. MC was taking over the high end even in the early 80s yet the Astrion held top sway with Absolute Sound and others for a good while. Imagine, a lowly moving iron design atop the exotica mountain. Hah!! Yeah, I was happy and proud of that. And I also understand the concerns about removable/replaceable styli. Across the entire ADC product line from the lowly $5 blister pack QLM30 sold off hanging racks in Rat Shack, to the exclusively sold high end Astrion, there was only on coil form, magnetic circuit, shield can, and stylus holder design. All the product differentiation came in the diamond/stylus and, most importantly, the stylus suspension designs. But don't underestimate the subtleties of difference that were contained there. Cartridge design is 90% suspension design. Adequate damping, proper angles, stability of motional rotation, blah, blah....and no, I'm not telling all my secrets. Now, there are significant differences in the sound coloration imparted by MC, MM, and MI designs and its interesting to get the sense here that there remains room in folks systems and hearts for all of them. To Kirk57, I completely get that about tone-arms. And I'm glad you are still enjoying the LMF. Yeah, the Black Widow and LMF were the uniquely low mass designs. I was never a fan of big ol' chunky, paddle damped SME arms (and lots of others of the time) unless they were crushing some horrible non-compliant, stiff MC design into submission. I do have some MCs in my collection, and I designed a MC or two of my own and discovered that you can do MC designs that are just as compliant as other designs can be. Again, I would discuss more but here we broach the line into the black art!!

I am aware of the market situations with the long established volume brands (at least those who remain) as well as the customs like Koetsu. They were coming to the fore in high end just as I was leaving the audio business. I am also familiar with the establishment of reputation with the "golden ear" crowd and they provide more to the process and market than some folks will allow. We don't all have all the variants of sound systems necessary to fully understand the character of a design, nor do we all hear the same, not have the same taste in what musical presentation we find the most satisfying. A designer needs a circle of honest evaluators with a diversity of tastes, preferences, and equipment to best progress his designs.

Finally, I am fortunate to have had a good career in science, engineering, and the management of very technical programs and now with general management. This would become an entertainment, and expression of personal creativity and fulfillment, but doesn't need to fill a "life support" role.

Again, thanks for all your comments. I will endeavor to keep this thread open and seek your feedback on questions of your preferences and experiences with different cartridges and cartridge design.

For example, a number of you have expressed how much you like certain older designs above. I know all of those designs use modified elliptical (likely 4x7) diamonds, primarily because they were designed prior to the development of Shibata or line contact type diamonds. There had been finer contact designs driven by the need for higher carrier frequency reading with 4 ch (You all remember Quad, don't you?). But those designs were notorious for chewing up vinyl. The newer Shibata and line contact shapes increased the vertical contact zone to minimize the pressure effect. But there are a number here who like the older mod. ellipticals? Why? Because the sound is a little smoother, less edgy, silkier? Love to hear your thoughts on stylus shape.

Cheers, OldADC
 
Eric: I had answered over in the Astrion thread, so for completeness here's my reply from that thread:

I think that would depend on what you could offer at which price level, with manufacturing by hand and even more so individual professional inspection surely being good for a certain price premium. So I'd think, if you could offer something comparable to a ZLM Improved or an Astrion for some 400 to 600 bucks, that sure would be an interesting option - even more so, if you could offer it with several options/in several variants that would make it even more of an interesting choice. Like for example two line-contact needle variants, one with comparatively high compliance close to 30 cu and the other with moderately high compliance around 20 cu, and two generator versions, one with comparatively low inductance, but still reasonably high output level for MM inputs, and the other with very low inductance and low output level for MC inputs - and maybe also at least one 78 rpm needle version and perhaps even a T4P body variant later on. I'd think something like that would have a good chance to become a popular choice...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Eric: I had answered over in the Astrion thread, so for completeness here's my reply from that thread:



Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Thanks for the input, Manfred. Compliance in a suspension is difficult to vary with having to change effective mass. The two form a mechanical resonance circuit that has to be mutually tuned. As for messing around with the electrical LRC characteristics and different output levels, that is a great idea. Not always easy to execute, but really worthwhile. Thanks.
 
For example, a number of you have expressed how much you like certain older designs above. I know all of those designs use modified elliptical (likely 4x7) diamonds, primarily because they were designed prior to the development of Shibata or line contact type diamonds. There had been finer contact designs driven by the need for higher carrier frequency reading with 4 ch (You all remember Quad, don't you?). But those designs were notorious for chewing up vinyl. The newer Shibata and line contact shapes increased the vertical contact zone to minimize the pressure effect. But there are a number here who like the older mod. ellipticals? Why? Because the sound is a little smoother, less edgy, silkier? Love to hear your thoughts on stylus shape.

Cheers, OldADC
I agree with the general impression of ellipticals and would even extend it to conicals. The AT15Sa I have now sounds the smoothest with the bonded elliptical I bought it with. The Shibata I bought for it later is a little edgy, though this could be partly because the elliptical is well broken in and the Shibata is fresh out of the box.

Which brings a question to mind: What is your experience with cartridge break-in? Is this something that occurs in the suspension, the stylus, or is it purely psychological? Some claim a dramatic difference after a few hours, but I've never noticed much of any difference before and after.
 
I know what I want you to do (and I am pretty certain it won't happen), and that is to produce a Decca ffss or London that I can afford. They used to be relatively affordable (though quality control was whimsical at best), but now, they are grimly expensive.
Just looking inside, its hard to see what makes it necessary to charge so much. Obviously the Decca is a niche product, but it was a nice product in its heyday, so what has changed? How hard could it be to offer it in a modified form with four (count them, four! not three!) cartridge pins, and pins that actually are normal thickness? And given that the workings were mounted on plastic, why not make the plastic the basis of the whole body so that it is rigid and non resonant, and vapor deposit or plate the metal coating to protect against EMI, rather than the flimsy tin can with a slide on top?
I'm no expert, but the actual generating circuit doesn't look that much more complex than a Red Ed, though obviously the metal armature that the stylus is mounted in is more complex, expensive and would take much more individual adjustment (which, apparently, didn't get done all that well back in the 70s). So you don't have to bring it in at 14.95.
Please?
 
But if you can't make a Decca, I join those asking for something like the Stanton/ Pickering low impedance cartridges. Or, if the narrow market for such things is a buzz kill, how about reviving the AKG range?
(I apologize for not asking you to make new Astrions, but I never heard one. I had XLMs and Sonus Blues, and liked them, but the LZ Stantons and the AKG P8ES were even better, I thought. Sorry...)
 
I'd like to add my vote for a low impedance/low output MI cartridge, something with some of the benefits of an LOMC but with a user replaceable stylus. Of the 30+ cartridges in my growing collection, this is one design I've never heard but would like to. Standalone phono stages with built-in head amps are more common than ever, so the low output aspect is no longer the barrier to better sound that it used to be. I think there's room in the market to develop this type of generator and be commercially successful in this day and age.
 
I will prob not be in the custom cart market unless my Lottery luck does a 180, but I DO wish success to those considering getting into it on both sides of the cash register.

I would like also to say I purchased an Astrion cart direct from one of the many sales BSR had at its now long gone facility in Blauvlelt, NY. I further would like to say it was a fantastic, great sounding cart, but sadly I never did mount it and to make matters worse, I don't recall if I sold it, lost it or the dog ate it! :(

So . . . was it a good cart . . . loved that solid lucite "box" it came in as well. :D
 
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