New Grado Black2

the black or any of the grados with removable styli, NEEDS to be in a medium to heavy mass lest it launches into the GRADO DANCE. i know this because i was using an FTE+1 in my Grace 707 and it did the dance and i wish i had l the motivation to videotape the occurrence. viewed from the front of the cartridge, it was oscillating in a circle. i stopped the tt immediately, and gave it some thought and then added a one gram blob of black modeling clay on top of the headshell and then rebalanced the arm and reset the VTF to 1.5gr.

VOILA ! the dance was gone due to my changing the resonance point of the arm/stylus suspension material. using my other tt (a /rabco ST4 with a more massive arm) with an F1+ (equivalent to the current gold) with NO dance.

this is very much like my insistence that the ADC XLM belongs in a low mass arm. this is because the stylus suspension was so delicate due to very high compliance. putting an XLM on an arm like that in the technics SL1200 is begging for early failure of the cartridge suspension.
 
the black or any of the grados with removable styli, NEEDS to be in a medium to heavy mass lest it launches into the GRADO DANCE.

This does not match my experience... a Grado worked great in a low mass SME 3009 improved and on my low mass Dual arms, and sounded rather blah on a high mass Jelco SA750D, with or without damping, and on a medium mass, stock Technics SL-1200MK2 arm.

I suspect there may have been other issues with your Grace (the bearings?) that caused the dancing, which other cartridges may have been able to overcome. As Marc has said many times, Grados are very finicky about what's further upstream.
 
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the black or any of the grados with removable styli, NEEDS to be in a medium to heavy mass lest it launches into the GRADO DANCE. i know this because i was using an FTE+1 in my Grace 707 and it did the dance and i wish i had l the motivation to videotape the occurrence. viewed from the front of the cartridge, it was oscillating in a circle. i stopped the tt immediately, and gave it some thought and then added a one gram blob of black modeling clay on top of the headshell and then rebalanced the arm and reset the VTF to 1.5gr.

VOILA ! the dance was gone due to my changing the resonance point of the arm/stylus suspension material. using my other tt (a /rabco ST4 with a more massive arm) with an F1+ (equivalent to the current gold) with NO dance.

this is very much like my insistence that the ADC XLM belongs in a low mass arm. this is because the stylus suspension was so delicate due to very high compliance. putting an XLM on an arm like that in the technics SL1200 is begging for early failure of the cartridge suspension.
Not true at all the Grado need to be in a light arm they are high compliance ie need a medium to light arm. Have a google before you reply...
Chris
 
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Oh and just to clarify I have 3 Grado carts and 5 turntables so know what they work on and the compliance issue ie high is known and most MI are high compliance which is the problem as they are not a match for most arms as most are too HEAVY!! Not light.
Chris
 
So someone explain to me the success that Van Alstine has had with longhorning these carts. I know from experience that the longhorn "bar" adds considerable mass to the lower front end of the cart, which is exactly the point of doing so as I understand it. The fact that the Grado dance exists, along with the success of the longhorn mod, would contradict the notion that the Prestige carts do best in light tonearms.
 
This does not match my experience... a Grado worked great in a low mass SME 3009 improved and on my low mass Dual arms, and sounded rather blah on a high mass Jelco SA750D, with or without damping.

I suspect there may have been other issues with your Grace (the bearings?) that caused the dancing, which other cartridges may have been able to overcome. As Marc has said many times, Grados are very finicky about what's further upstream.
Does not match my experience either. My Black2 and Gold2 sound so very much better mounted in my stock ARXA arm than they do in my Jelco. The addition to silicone in the well of the Jelco improved their performance but did not match the sound in the stock AR. I understand there are other factors involved with the design of the AR arm. I will be visiting Marc Morin soon. I'm giving him my stock AR for his enhancements. I expect I'll learn a lot more then. Marc mentioned the Grado dance the last time we spoke by phone. I'm sure I'll learn a lot more about that as well when I see him.
 
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I'm interested to hear from Marc and others about experiences then with the longhorn mod. While it is known to stabilize the Grado dance, it adds significant weight to the cart as well. What are the potential downsides, or are those who find the longhorn to be superfluous or deleterious even?
 
I'm interested to hear from Marc and others about experiences then with the longhorn mod. While it is known to stabilize the Grado dance, it adds significant weight to the cart as well. What are the potential downsides, or are those who find the longhorn to be superfluous or deleterious even?
If Marc doesn't chime in and offer his thoughts I will ask him when I see him and do my best to report what he has to say.
 
Does not match my experience either. My Black2 and Gold2 sound so very much better mounted in my stock ARXA arm than they do in my Jelco. The addition to silicone in the well of the Jelco improved their performance but did not match the sound in the stock AR. I understand there are other factors involved with the design of the AR arm. I will be visiting Marc Morin soon. I'm giving him my stock AR for his enhancements. I expect I'll learn a lot more then. Marc mentioned the Grado dance the last time we spoke by phone. I'm sure I'll learn a lot more about that as well when I see him.

Of course, the AR arm has an effective mass of around 12g, making it definitely medium mass.
 
Of course, the AR arm has an effective mass of around 12g, making it definitely medium mass.
And it(Gold 2) sounds just wonderful at 1.50 g VTF in my Jelco-750D(em 13.48 g) half cup filled.;)
(It dos not sound any better with a Technics headshell* that together with the arm have about 10 g em. Just the
contrary).
*The counterweight was flipped the other way around.
 
So someone explain to me the success that Van Alstine has had with longhorning these carts. I know from experience that the longhorn "bar" adds considerable mass to the lower front end of the cart, which is exactly the point of doing so as I understand it. The fact that the Grado dance exists, along with the success of the longhorn mod, would contradict the notion that the Prestige carts do best in light tonearms.
It is a way to try and damp things slow things down. Reason the Grado dance exists on some arms is first compliance, second poor bearings on some arms and possibly incorrect anti skate. Starting with compliance imagine a light stiff pole about the weight of a fishing rod you can wave it around and change direction easily. Now change that to a long steel bar changing direction ie moving left and right is much harder, it is these direction changes that dictate compliance and cause a stylus wobble when it is wrong. Imagine a heavy turntable arm and a stiff cart suspension it can track the groove and its changing directions with ease, but leave the arm heavy and put a high compliance cart on ie a cart with a lighter suspension and stylus then those changes of direction cause a wobble i the stylus as suspension and stylus is too light to overcome the momentum in the direction change this is the Grado wobble ie medium compliance arm and a cart which is designed for a lighter arm (most MI). Now this problem can be overcome in a few ways, one is oil damping which is on a few arms and can be added to the Technics arm ie Kab damper this extends the compliance. The damper damps the direction changes making it easier on the stylus to cope with this momentum. The long horn is another way of doing a similar thing, but an oil damper will do a far better job. Correctly set up on an arm with correct compliance ie lighter medium compliance arms Grado dance wont happen. Grado should though be fine on arms like the Jelco or Technics ie around 12g effective mass but better with oil damping as match is not perfect at 12g compliance wise but in safe zone.
Chris
 
I guess I just have poor ears. I am old so perhaps that's my problem. I do prefer music played with my Gold2 in my old AR XA over that reproduced with my Jelco. On the other hand, I prefer my Denon DL-110 in the Jelco.

I am much more interested in listening to music over playing with equipment though. But, it's fun to read all these posts and opinions and sometimes adding my two cents. Even when I find that I am obviously uninformed.
 
Chiming in late.............the EM of a stock AR XA arm is 9.5gr. The longhorn modification is to mass damp the polar moments in the arm bearings. Has nothing to do with adding effective mass to the arm .
I've explained the "grado dance" in another thread. In short, the "dance" is a visual magnification of the unstable energies at the pivots.
 
I guess I just have poor ears. I am old so perhaps that's my problem. I do prefer music played with my Gold2 in my old AR XA over that reproduced with my Jelco. On the other hand, I prefer my Denon DL-110 in the Jelco.

I am much more interested in listening to music over playing with equipment though. But, it's fun to read all these posts and opinions and sometimes adding my two cents. Even when I find that I am obviously uninformed.
The Xa is a rather light arm around 8-10 effective mass so this makes sense the Grado is better on that arm.
Chris
 
I looked up an original Van Alstine Audio Basics newsletter from April 1982, in which he discusses the longhorn and in it he says the following:

"The modification will add a lead (solder) weighted brass U-Channel across the face of your phono cartridge, mounted as low on the face as possible, which, if mounted properly, will be parallel with the record surface and below the center of gravity of the cartridge arm system. It will provide a high polar moment of inertia to mechanical input into the cartridge (vibrations from the record grove) and will cause more signal to be converted into electrical output and less wasted in mechanical movement of the cartridge and arm" (Van Alstine, 1982, p. 9).

I'm not an engineer and I don't know whether any of Van Alstine's thoughts on the longhorn contradict what Marc has said here, but in my application the added mass, at the very front end of the cartridge, makes the entire tonearm noticeably heavier, changes the positioning of the counterweight in relation to the pivots, in short it very much changes the overall configuration of the entire tonearm.


Chiming in late.............the EM of a stock AR XA arm is 9.5gr. The longhorn modification is to mass damp the polar moments in the arm bearings. Has nothing to do with adding effective mass to the arm .
I've explained the "grado dance" in another thread. In short, the "dance" is a visual magnification of the unstable energies at the pivots.
 
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