New Separates from Line Magnetic...

The difficulty is finding gear that does everything equally well - for me in particular because I listen to an extremely wide array of music. Certain tube amps sound better at Eva Cassidy while not as good with AC/DC - where as the killer AC/DC amp may lack body and soul for Eva Cassidy.

No small wonder that many tube amps provide high/low-no feedback or UL/Triode modes to somewhat allow you to compensate for the type of music you're playing.

The LM dealer here describes the 300B as a "Lady Amp" which I take to mean delicate and pretty but not particularly ballsy or robust sounding and he's really not all that wrong. For some it's the one and only but for others it can be their least favorite of the SET amps.

I should note that early on I upgraded my 219IA with German Silver caps and my amp is now called the 219IA DX which they sold beside the regular 219IA version. This model is only sold in Hong Kong. The stock preamp tubes 12AX7 are pretty awful as well. John Halppern told me to junk those immediately. The dealer here who sells all sorts of tubes has favorites which interestingly seem to fly in the face of tube fans on various boards. But his recommendation works for this amp - modestly priced Tung Sol Gold pins

I would like to bring some preamps in because in general it is the preamp stage that is the weak spot of integrated amplifiers - all integrated amps - and Line Magnetic was smart enough to know that and put direct/preamp in instead of preouts.

The money was obviously put to the big power output stage - the 310a/300B dual driver stage to the 845 with the massive transformers - but the 12ax7 preamp stage is lesser. With the right preamp - the thing could be pretty spectacular as a dual mono (closest thing you can get to monoblocks) power amp. I might try and get an Audio Note M2 or M3 or M6 home to try. I might even consider having the LM internally rewired with AN silver cables as well as replacing the Cardas RCA connectors with AN silver and replace the caps again with Black Gates or Silver in Oil caps. Well the latter if I win the lotto.
 
So Richard, why buy the 219 if the preamp stage is weak? I have a wonderful CJ tube pre sitting in my setup not getting much use. So if we like the triode/845/300b sound what power amps would you recommend. Offhand I can think of the Cary 805 anniversary additions for mucho bucks (although a seller on AG has them new for around half of retail). One would think LM would make 845 monoblocks or perhaps a two-channel power amp with comparable power to its 219 which should cost less than the 219 as they dispense with the pre stage. Why does it always seem like these monoblocks or two-channel power amps cost so much more than their integrated counterparts? Any recommendations if we wanted to get some great 845/300 monoblocks or two-channel power amps which wouldn't break the proverbial bank?
 
So Richard, why buy the 219 if the preamp stage is weak? I have a wonderful CJ tube pre sitting in my setup not getting much use. So if we like the triode/845/300b sound what power amps would you recommend. Offhand I can think of the Cary 805 anniversary additions for mucho bucks (although a seller on AG has them new for around half of retail). One would think LM would make 845 monoblocks or perhaps a two-channel power amp with comparable power to its 219 which should cost less than the 219 as they dispense with the pre stage. Why does it always seem like these monoblocks or two-channel power amps cost so much more than their integrated counterparts? Any recommendations if we wanted to get some great 845/300 monoblocks or two-channel power amps which wouldn't break the proverbial bank?

I will throw in my 2c.
I think with the LM integrated`s the amp section is their strong points, so some think of the preamp section as lesser. You need to get into big buck equipment to find faults but compared to what is available and certainly at any given price point they could be considered excellent. Having many tubes at my disposal i have found what i consider the best 12AX7 tubes for me and i consider my preamp section to be very good.

Recently i have had Shindo 845 monos and Shindo preamp in my home, excellent equipment and sound but were the ever so slight improvements in some areas worth the 75k difference? no, and in some areas i felt the 518 did better. At some point you have to determine your spending limit. If price was no object i would consider the AN Gaku-On monos.
 
One would have thought most such integrateds were meant to work best with their own passive pre section, so that you get the maximum purity of the amp section goodness.
Especially for more idiosyncratic output tubes like 300B such would generally be desired.
Ya want the 300B and nothing more, or less.

But the LM might be an exception as Richard said if it comes with the pre-in.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk 2
 
One would have thought most such integrateds were meant to work best with their own passive pre section, so that you get the maximum purity of the amp section goodness.
Especially for more idiosyncratic output tubes like 300B such would generally be desired.
Ya want the 300B and nothing more, or less.

But the LM might be an exception as Richard said if it comes with the pre-in.

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk 2

Such is true. I have tried different preamps for fun, different flavor, musically better? Guess that all depends on the listener and what is better to them. Then you have the cables to add to the mix.

The pre-in is good marketing and expands it`s use and flexibility at the same time.
 
So Richard, why buy the 219 if the preamp stage is weak? I have a wonderful CJ tube pre sitting in my setup not getting much use. So if we like the triode/845/300b sound what power amps would you recommend. Offhand I can think of the Cary 805 anniversary additions for mucho bucks (although a seller on AG has them new for around half of retail). One would think LM would make 845 monoblocks or perhaps a two-channel power amp with comparable power to its 219 which should cost less than the 219 as they dispense with the pre stage. Why does it always seem like these monoblocks or two-channel power amps cost so much more than their integrated counterparts? Any recommendations if we wanted to get some great 845/300 monoblocks or two-channel power amps which wouldn't break the proverbial bank?

When I say weak I don't mean it sounds weak - I mean that integrated amps are generally a compromise of sorts - either for size, or cost to build - they have to sell stuff and not everyone wants a bunch of behemoths in their house. I have to use Audio Note as an example because their integrated amps are essentially their separates housed in one box. The Meishu integrated is an M2 preamp and one of their power amps (P3SE or something). But I found that their separates versions sounds considerably better enough than the one box solution that it would be worth paying the extra for the separates.

With amplifiers like the 219IA - and I am making a purely educated guess on it - they have designed a dual mono amplifier with ridiculous transformers and have provided direct in/preamp in capability. The only reason to do that is to say that - this amp can be improved with a superior preamp. You could live the rest of your days with the 219IA and never go for a preamp - but as I am a reviewer I can't review power amps without a preamp. And there are improvements with preamps - an AN M2 isn't as good as an AN M6. You could live forever with an M2 and be happy but it's kind of like once you hear B you can't go back to A kind of thing. To me the best equipment lies by omission - it doesn't make you feel the need to change or upgrade but when you hear something better you know its better.

Now LM is putting out monoblocks but they may not be available in the west yet. The LM 503PA monoblock is a 310a, 300B, 845 monoblock

150119031558.jpg


And they have a matching preamp in the 512CA

150119031729.jpg


The price is obviously higher for the separates because more power supplies and more parts are being used. This week I will try and hear the above combination. I saw the store had them in in December but have been busy with work to get out there to try it.
 
I will say that a lot of the time noticing an improvement can be a drawn out affair - even reviewers like John Atkinson have been fooled. He did blind tests and could not tell the difference so he sold his pricey amp for a cheap one - 6 months later or whatever he discovered the fact that some differences are simply noticed more over time with more subtlety than A/B comparisons. Depending on the gear used is also a factor.

I had Tara Labs IC cables and brought in Audio Note V silver cables which cost about 15 times more money. Meh I thought in the system I had at the time. Not really noticeable - I get why people always want blind tests.

But I used them for the next few years cause - well they cost 15 times more money. One day I accidentally broke the connector on the AN interconnect because you have to pull and I twist and pull. So the solder wasn't making the connection and sound would intermittently cut out. So I put my award winning raved about Tara Labs cable back in and OH MY LORD IT SUCKED. I rushed and cleaned them - still sucked. So so bad. It was so unrelentingly awful that I took them out and put the broken AN IC back in and put up with the occasional cut out and went down and got it repaired the next day.

I actually find my ear is much better at "over time" judgements than instantaneous comparison of new products. Same thing happened with my Audio Space integrated. When you plop in the 219IA you know it's better but it's when I was running the 219IA for a year and then put the Audio Space back in where I nearly couldn't listen to the Audio Space at all. And this is a fine amplifier for $1500 or so dollars - no question but you get used to something and going back you notice far more the weaknesses.

My favorite system when starting out were the likes of PMC and B&W with Bryston or Levinson and now I can't stomach listening to any of that stuff. When I heard the AN system it was on another level entirely. But that was my first real big timely experience with SET amplifiers.
 
So rather than lugging my PM1s to the LM dealer and auditioning the amps there for a few hours, i worked out a deal with him such that I bring the amps back home with me and audition them for a week before i decide between the 581IA or the 501IA. And here they are...

IMG_20150226_2237522_zpsylt7fmou.jpg


Have been listening to them back and forth and have been thoroughly amazed at how the sound coming from my PM1s has been transformed by both amps. I am finally doing justice to these fine speakers and realize how poorly the home theater amp had been filling in for music duties.

After about 3 days of listening, it's quite clear where the differences lie between the two amps. i dont have the vocabulary to describe the characteristic of either amp. The best way i can describe the amps is that the 501 is like rafael nadal and the 518 is like Roger Federer. Both amps perform at a very high level. The 501s are really punchy and aggressive and drive the PM1s with real authority. The 518s on the other hand, while having significantly less power, dont seem to let the power deficit affect the music that much and in fact end up sounding more polished and refined, and drive the PM1s with a lot more finesse than the 501s. And, since i am a roger federer fan, I'm leaning towards the amp with more finesse than the one with raw power.

Have the amps for a few more days before a decision is made so will continue to listen.
 
The 518s on the other hand, while having significantly less power, dont seem to let the power deficit affect the music that much and in fact end up sounding more polished and refined, and drive the PM1s with a lot more finesse than the 501s.

I only heard the 518i for a short time in an unfamiliar system but "polished and refined" was what I heard too - right along with that SET presence and immediacy I like so much. If I ever look for a more powerful amp the LM 518i would be at the top of my audition list - I loved what I heard of it.
 
Great analogies, ravashanks. Did you listen to the 219ia? It seems like that might be the best of both worlds but certainly more expensive, of course. Either way you proceed, best of luck. Are you located stateside? If so which dealer are you using?
 
So rather than lugging my PM1s to the LM dealer and auditioning the amps there for a few hours, i worked out a deal with him such that I bring the amps back home with me and audition them for a week before i decide between the 581IA or the 501IA. And here they are...

IMG_20150226_2237522_zpsylt7fmou.jpg


Have been listening to them back and forth and have been thoroughly amazed at how the sound coming from my PM1s has been transformed by both amps. I am finally doing justice to these fine speakers and realize how poorly the home theater amp had been filling in for music duties.

After about 3 days of listening, it's quite clear where the differences lie between the two amps. i dont have the vocabulary to describe the characteristic of either amp. The best way i can describe the amps is that the 501 is like rafael nadal and the 518 is like Roger Federer. Both amps perform at a very high level. The 501s are really punchy and aggressive and drive the PM1s with real authority. The 518s on the other hand, while having significantly less power, dont seem to let the power deficit affect the music that much and in fact end up sounding more polished and refined, and drive the PM1s with a lot more finesse than the 501s. And, since i am a roger federer fan, I'm leaning towards the amp with more finesse than the one with raw power.

Have the amps for a few more days before a decision is made so will continue to listen.

That`s the way to do it. Your very fortunate to have a dealer that`s cool and is allowing you to audition both at the same time.

Having owned both the 501 and currently the 518 i can say that i much prefer the 518 sound over the 501. From rock to acoustic music your in for a listening treat, 6 months later i want for nothing.

I have owned many amps over the last 5 decades and the 518 seems to do everything well, no hype it just delivers the goods.
 
@RDSChicago: I'm located South East... of Asia. Heh. Am in Singapore. Much closer to the origin of these amps so pricing is alot more favourable for us. I'd have to pay significantly more for an equivalent US/UK product. But the LMs are good value here as well. As a comparison, the Leben CS600 retails for twice as much as the LM518 here.

Didn't consider the 219s as budget and space limitations governed my choices.

@RH67: Yes i think I can confidently make the decision between the 2 amps as i know how they sound with my system. I was afraid of the low sensitivity of the PM1s and how they would be affected by the lack of power from the 518 but it seems to be driving them effortlessly. Pleasant surprise indeed.
 

Attachments

  • P2260010 (2).jpg
    P2260010 (2).jpg
    54.9 KB · Views: 58
Last edited:
P3130267_zpsqki2dqco.jpg


Chose the 518IA over the 501IA and have been enjoying this wonderful amp for about 2 weeks now. Luckily for me, the various components seem to be working in harmony with each other. Quite a disparate bunch of items: garrard 401 TT, Audiolab 8200CD, LM518IA, Whest two phonostage and B&W PM1s. Hmm... Seems like mostly british components except the LM.

Didn't fancy switching the speaker cables back and forth between the home theater amp and the LM so i decided to run another pair of speaker cables from the LM (opted for the lesser of two evils of switching the cables at the speaker end instead). Just finished laying the Audio Note SPa cables and was warned by the dealer that the cables will need time to run in and might not sound great when i first start listening to them. Seems like he wasn't kidding as the soundstage has narrowed considerably and much of the bass has gone into hiding. I am getting some very good detail that i did not get previously though so am hoping that the cables will come into their own after their run-in period of 50 hours (!).
 
P3130267_zpsqki2dqco.jpg


Chose the 518IA over the 501IA and have been enjoying this wonderful amp for about 2 weeks now. Luckily for me, the various components seem to be working in harmony with each other. Quite a disparate bunch of items: garrard 401 TT, Audiolab 8200CD, LM518IA, Whest two phonostage and B&W PM1s. Hmm... Seems like mostly british components except the LM.

Didn't fancy switching the speaker cables back and forth between the home theater amp and the LM so i decided to run another pair of speaker cables from the LM (opted for the lesser of two evils of switching the cables at the speaker end instead). Just finished laying the Audio Note SPa cables and was warned by the dealer that the cables will need time to run in and might not sound great when i first start listening to them. Seems like he wasn't kidding as the soundstage has narrowed considerably and much of the bass has gone into hiding. I am getting some very good detail that i did not get previously though so am hoping that the cables will come into their own after their run-in period of 50 hours (!).

Congrats and enjoy.:thmbsp:
 
P3130267_zpsqki2dqco.jpg


Chose the 518IA over the 501IA and have been enjoying this wonderful amp for about 2 weeks now. Luckily for me, the various components seem to be working in harmony with each other. Quite a disparate bunch of items: garrard 401 TT, Audiolab 8200CD, LM518IA, Whest two phonostage and B&W PM1s. Hmm... Seems like mostly british components except the LM.

Didn't fancy switching the speaker cables back and forth between the home theater amp and the LM so i decided to run another pair of speaker cables from the LM (opted for the lesser of two evils of switching the cables at the speaker end instead). Just finished laying the Audio Note SPa cables and was warned by the dealer that the cables will need time to run in and might not sound great when i first start listening to them. Seems like he wasn't kidding as the soundstage has narrowed considerably and much of the bass has gone into hiding. I am getting some very good detail that i did not get previously though so am hoping that the cables will come into their own after their run-in period of 50 hours (!).

Beautiful, congratulations on the purchase of that fine amp.
 
The LM dealer is also an Audio Note dealer? What speakers are being run. I am surprised a dealer would recommend AN silver with anything not from Audio Note. The copper Lexus cables is generally the one they recommend for non Audio Note systems. If the silver Spe doesn't come around (and some feel it takes 500hours not 50) then try the Copper ISIS(an unfortunate name) which some feel is better than the smaller strand silver. Peter Q discusses the cables in this link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLV_zXKJiU
 
Back
Top Bottom