No Offence But, was Pioneer ever Good?

[jcoconnell]

I am new here but I dont understand why so many are interested in pioneer products and they have their own forum. My experience with them in the 1978 to 1983 era was that they were not well made at all. Was the earlier (or later?) stuff any better? Are there any "classic models" in the '78-'83 era? I find that hard to believe because if you have ever seen the insides of those vintage models you would be very unimpressed.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Suggested reading material for J.C. O'Connell:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1107933341/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8952246-3662415?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[asynchronousman]

If I look at your insides I wouldn't be impressed either, IMO...I'm not into how huge a cap is, I want it to do what I got it for. Same as any other brand. I DON'T like six-disc changers, and I know few who really do. Every make has it's duds and I've seen some, but most Pioneers of that era do what they were supposed to. I see you dilemma is that you expect it to be "legendary" in today's terms when all that stuff was some of the best ever made the years passed and a lot of that stuff is damned good but not TOTL anymore. The Specs, and a few of the high powered receivers in exception maybe.

Perhaps you also had different standards also, Not everyone is gonna agree on that definition or there wouldn't be any Nikko, Rotel, etc owners bothering to post.

Care to enlighten us on your preferences? You haven't really said much besides you didn't like the "guts" so lets see your stereo guts.

 

[jcoconnell]

I am speaking from Pioneer OWNERSHIP experience. I had a bunch of pioneer stuff back then because I was a broke teenager and it was relatively inexpensive, but most of it failed in a few years and internally they did not
install confidence due to the construction... I cant speak for sound quality, my ears and sources were so poor back then I wouldnt have a clue as to if they were actually good sounding or not.

 

[jcoconnell]

If I look at your insides I wouldn't be impressed either, IMO...I'm not into how huge a cap is, I want it to do what I got it for. Same as any other brand. I DON'T like six-disc changers, and I know few who really do. Every make has it's duds and I've seen some, but most Pioneers of that era do what they were supposed to. I see you dilemma is that you expect it to be "legendary" in today's terms when all that stuff was some of the best ever made the years passed and a lot of that stuff is damned good but not TOTL anymore. The Specs, and a few of the high powered receivers in exception maybe.

Perhaps you also had different standards also, Not everyone is gonna agree on that definition or there wouldn't be any Nikko, Rotel, etc owners bothering to post.

Care to enlighten us on your preferences? You haven't really said much besides you didn't like the "guts" so lets see your stereo guts.

I dont know what the heck you are talking about. Seeing my Stereo guts?
Regarding vintage electronics , I know there are a lot of old tube fans that like the macintosh, HK stuff, marantz, etc. But I never heard of vintage pioneeer solid state collectors/users until this forum. I just didnt understand why based on my experience of ownership of the products and never hearing
of such a thing before and I am into hifi for about 30 years...

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I am speaking from Pioneer OWNERSHIP experience. I had a bunch of pioneer stuff back then because I was a broke teenager and it was relatively inexpensive, but most of it failed in a few years and internally they did not
install confidence due to the construction... I cant speak for sound quality, my ears and sources were so poor back then I wouldnt have a clue as to if they were actually good sounding or not.

There are a lot of Pioneer owners on this forum, including me. Every product line has its low-end, and its high-end.

What is wrong with your post is that you not only questioned the quality of the equipment, you questioned why there should even be a Pioneer forum. I would imagine, from your list of equipment, anything that is not included in your list is sub-par and should not even be discussed.

Perhaps you should spend some time browsing the forums, looking at the discussions, and understanding the members passions before you begin your condemnation and criticism.

 

[ProAc_Fan]

J.C. looking at your current rig why are you even concerned about vintage Pioneer gear? Surely you can't expect that stuff to outperform what you currently have anyway. We do have our Pioneer afficianados on AK just like we have Marantz, Sansui, Kenwood, Rotel ( to name a few) afficianados. Vintage gear isn't my "thing" so I'll leave it to those guys to sing the praises of vintage Pioneer. Just ignore asynchronousman, sometimes his posts aren't of the lucid variety.

Mike

 

[asynchronousman]

Doc has been talking to me for a little while tonight and hardly suspects me of not being "lucid". Some of my better friendships may have started with an argument, but this isn't cool. Did we get a drive thru installed lately? And aren't we supposed to be more "harmonious" and not the usual bunch of cats pissing around on keyboards like supposedly on other boards? A lot of you all are there too...still. Quit kidding yourself about the "village idiot"...there is no village, and I get royalties for each ten-cent word you don't know how to apply, Pete.

Why can't J. C. take the approach of just asking why people like Pioneer from that era and relate his bad experiences as part of his query instead of coming down so negatively? Read his other posts and decide if he really wants to know or is just harping about it. That's not what we want to do as a community, or whatever you'd call a webgroup.

And you still don't complain about buying a TV set for "too much" if you expect to get your money back if it ain't the cheapest. Too much for even skinflinty little ME to listen to.

.

 

[wjahn5]

jcoconnell:

Can you give more details regarding the Pioneer models you had and their problems?

 

[EchoWars]

Well, there's no reason why it can't be discussed, but touchy subjects are best approached by established members.

jcoconnell, what you've done is thrown out a blanket statement about a hellova lot of gear. While the 80's Jap gear (and others, not just Japanese), in general, don't do much for me, and IMHO does lack in the build quality dept, nearly all the midrange to high-end units (and a lot of even the budget models) from Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, Yamaha, etc etc, in the '72 to '79 era have a build quality that is outstanding by any measure.

If you repaired these things for a living, you'd know.

...and I know.

I can see you've spent a fair amount of money on your gear, and you have a right to be proud of what you own (and the Hafler amp is pretty cool). But if you think for a moment that I can't get an old Pioneer SX-1010 to raise the hair on the back of your neck with a few tweaks here and there, then I'd love to prove you wayyy wrong. There is a reason that these 70's units are still around, and still sound good.

As an aside, although the Hafler is a great amp, I can guarantee that the construction methods used in 70's Pioneer gear are superior to it.

Lastly, I have to add that I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks. I didn't buy my gear to impress anyone but me. The more who believe what you believe, the lower prices will stay, so I certainly urge you NOT to change your opinion of Pioneer, Kenwood, or any of the others on account of anything you read here.

 

[foetusized]

I have an SA-510 flouroscan integrated amp, made in the early 80s. Very unassuming little amp, not top of its series, not regarded well enough to have information about it on the web like most of the other Pioneer silver face flouroscan stuff. I bought it at a garage sale in the mid-80s, and it has been in daily use since then. Other than an occasional cleaning of pots & switches by myself, it has never been repaired. Just a solid, effective, reliable, good sounding amp thats been part of my daily life for around 18 years. I've got the morning TV news on right now, with the sound from the digital cable box running through my SA-510.

Now that I've had some money to put together a second system, my choices are coloured by my own experiences (and not yours). I've been buying more silver face flouroscan Pioneer -- Foe

 

[Jim H B]

Former audio snob humbled....

It seems relevant, so I'll repeat an earlier thread that I posted:

I have to admit I was somewhat of an audio snob, thinking that my Harman Kardon and NAD receivers/integrateds/amps/pre-amps were a cut above Pioneer. But recently I picked up an SX-1010 at a decent price. My plan was to turn a quick profit on it on Ebay. But I hooked it up, and WOW! It is the best amp I've ever had. Powerful, clear, very neutral. It really sounds great.

Admittedly, my HK and NAD stuff is mid-line, and I understand that the 1010 was, at the time top of the line. But my point isn't to bash HK or NAD, because I still enjoy them. But the 1010 really opened my eyes. I'm not selling it now.

I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum, but I stand before you humbled!

 

[styler]

not a good start

JCO this is primarily a budget conscious group who thrive on the best sound for the buck. many of the people here are highly knowledgable regarding repair, service, and build quality. you obviously touched a nerve, why post a negative sounding post when its obvious there are a lot of Pioneer fans here? are you aware that the higher end Pioneer receivers command over 1000 dollars on ebay and audiogon? same with the stand alone tuners... they are nice to look at and sound fantastic. you may want to get a better feel for the site and perhaps word things less provocatively. fyi, i recently had a TOTL Rotel and PSB Stratus Goldi set up, i sold it all and bought a few pieces of choice vintage gear, sounds a heck of alot better than what i had before. bottom line, there's a good reason TOTL pioneer, marantz, & sansui are commanding phenomenal prices these days.

 

[mg196]

My 4 kopeks:

Even the low-end Pioneer gear I bought in the late 80's/early 90's is still functioning without ever having to open it up. Budget or not, the stuff was built to last!

 

[JoZmo]

I think you guys are taking this guys post way overboard. Did you read the first two words of the title of his post... "No offense".

I think he's just stating his opinion and why should he tip toe around his opinion. I don't get the impression that he's trying to attack anybody here or trying to say his gear is better.

Re-read his post. He asks: " Was the earlier (or later?) stuff any better? Are there any "classic models" in the '78-'83 era?"

Ya, maybe he could have been a bit more diplomatic but he's just stating his opinion on his experiences.

Everybody is so defensive about their gear sometimes... if you like it that's ALL that counts.

That's all folks!

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

JCO also questioned why us Pioneer folks even had our own forum. Pretty damned arrogant, especially for a newbie. He is certainly entitled to his opinion.

I am thankful that, with his attitude and closed mind, he doesn't run AK. Otherwise, only those with his gear would be allowed to participate.

 

[Kamakiri]

Read his first post closely.....he's talking about the construction of post "golden age" Pioneer products. Sure, if I was used to my SX-1010 (which I am ), then asked to go to an early 80s Pioneer piece, I have to admit from a quality standpoint I'd have to wonder the same thing.

I realize this may just be reading between the lines here, but I like to take the high road......because I just boot snobby people right in the ass

 

[jcoconnell]

I can see I obviously ruffled some feathers but I never have heard of pioneer enthusiasts and I am into audio pretty heavy so thats why I asked. I will rephrase my question, what attacts you to vintage pioneer as opposed to other brands?

Secondly, I have over 25 years as an electronics engineering technician and I fully understand engineering and manufacturing techniques then and now. I totally disagree with your statement that the pioneer electronics of the late 70's are better than the Hafler of the 80's and 90's. The pioneers I had used a lot of inexpensive electrolytic coupling caps and the circuit boards were low end affiars resembling $10 transistor radios. Dont jump all over me for saying the "guts" werent good because that is what you are buying when you buy electronics, you are not buying front panels and wood sides, what matters most is whats inside.

Regarding models, I dont recall all the numbers but I think the cassette was 850, I had a couple receivers, at least one turntable and the small reel to reel which was the 707 if
I recall correctly. After opening up some of the dead stuff to attempt repairs I never bought pioneer again based on MY experiences which may be different from yours of course. And like I said I didnt make my inital post to insult people, I just had never heard of such a thing and I will now admit I should have phrased my question more carefully...

And another thing, I did NOT rule out that there could be good pioneer stuff, I specifically asked if there was any stuff earlier or later better than the '78-'83 stuff so I did not assume its all of the qualitiy of '78-'83. But since no one
answered that question does that mean the '78-'83 stuff was typical or as good as it ever was or got?

 

[EchoWars]

Well, I wasn't sure which way he was headed, so I tried to make my own views clear. Still, to say that 'nothing' decent was built in that time period is painting a broad stroke with not a hellova lot to back it up.

Me? I don't care much for anything built after about '79.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

JCO, take some time to familiarize yourself with the Pioneer components and product lines from 1970 to 1985. Also, take a look at some other Pioneer sites and references, for example:

http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/

http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/stuff/pioneer/

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/pioneer.html

And there are other sources you could look at. In short, educate yourself. Your opinion may still be the same. But that is not my point.

For someone (you) who has been a member for less than 12 hours, well, I think you get my point...