One of These Things is Not Like the Other - What to Upgrade?

[smhaden]

Hello all,

Long time lurker looking for a little opinion or insight. I love this site, and I appreciate being able to come here to learn about the world of analog audio. I'm grateful for any knowledge out there to help upgrade my current system.

I've been rolling with my current setup for about a year, and while I mostly enjoy the sound it feels like it's lacking. I'd like to make an upgrade to one of the components, but I'm not sure which one might make a noticeable difference. Here's what I'm running:

Technics SL-1400
Shelter 201 MM cart
Parks Audio Budgie preamp w/ stock EH tubes
Monitor Audio Bronze 5 speakers
Onkyo TX-8050
Blue Jeans cables

I listen to a lot of 60s r&b, classic rock and jazz. The sound I'm getting has wonderful midrange. The Beatles "Revolver" is spectacular. But the sound can sometimes get fatiguing, and I notice the bass isn't detailed and rolls off, particularly when listening to jazz/r&b.

My first impulse is to upgrade the cart or tonearm. The Technics is a tank, its speed is unwavering and I LOVE the auto return. I don't want to ditch the TT (until I'm ready for something fancy), but that tonearm seems a little cheap, and I don't imagine the wiring is top notch. Or perhaps it's just time to get a higher quality cart, or add a subwoofer to the mix. Maybe my setup is off (that curved tonearm is a SOB to get right). Or maybe I should take up heroin, I mean tube rolling.

Given the sound I'm describing, perhaps the experts can offer some advice. Audiokarma Gods, take me away...

Thanks for your time!

 

[Will S.]

If you're comparing the bass on a vinyl setup to digital, "rolled off" and "isn't detailed" is an unsurprising reaction.

 

[smhaden]

If you're comparing the bass on a vinyl setup to digital, "rolled off" and "isn't detailed" is an unsurprising reaction.

My intent wasn't to compare vinyl to digital, but I appreciate the comment. My first setup was a Thorens TD-160/Shure V15-II/Sherwood S-7100a/Klipsch KG-4s. The bass was actually pretty excellent (and not just loud). The subs on the KG-4s did a nice job. Just no room for those monsters in the current space.

 

[JDub]

One of the mantras (or cliches if you prefer) that you'll come across here is "There's no replacement for displacement". What that means is if you want bass, you have to move air, so you need large, long-throw woofers. Your speakers have 5 and a half inch woofers: they need help. Research subwoofers. Or look for a pair of Klipsch KG 4.2 or 4.5 - they should get you close to the sound of the KG4 without the rear passive and the space it requires.

 

[darkblue94]

Klipsch KG4 speakers did not use subwoofers at all, they use woofers and yes, there is a difference.

 

[xero-D-hero]

But the sound can sometimes get fatiguing

IME that ^^^ tends to point a finger at > the speakers.

That said ^^^ the Onkyo NSR does'nt really do much for me either...

If I had to pick only one it would be the speakers.
To say much beyond that we'd need to know what sorta budget is available to work with to suggest any specifics.

Me,I'd leave the TT signal chain as-is for the time being.

JM2¢

Bret P.

 

[matteos]

Hello all,

Long time lurker looking for a little opinion or insight. I love this site, and I appreciate being able to come here to learn about the world of analog audio. I'm grateful for any knowledge out there to help upgrade my current system.

I've been rolling with my current setup for about a year, and while I mostly enjoy the sound it feels like it's lacking. I'd like to make an upgrade to one of the components, but I'm not sure which one might make a noticeable difference. Here's what I'm running:

Technics SL-1400
Shelter 201 MM cart
Parks Audio Budgie preamp w/ stock EH tubes
Monitor Audio Bronze 5 speakers
Onkyo TX-8050
Blue Jeans cables

I listen to a lot of 60s r&b, classic rock and jazz. The sound I'm getting has wonderful midrange. The Beatles "Revolver" is spectacular. But the sound can sometimes get fatiguing, and I notice the bass isn't detailed and rolls off, particularly when listening to jazz/r&b.

My first impulse is to upgrade the cart or tonearm. The Technics is a tank, its speed is unwavering and I LOVE the auto return. I don't want to ditch the TT (until I'm ready for something fancy), but that tonearm seems a little cheap, and I don't imagine the wiring is top notch. Or perhaps it's just time to get a higher quality cart, or add a subwoofer to the mix. Maybe my setup is off (that curved tonearm is a SOB to get right). Or maybe I should take up heroin, I mean tube rolling.

Given the sound I'm describing, perhaps the experts can offer some advice. Audiokarma Gods, take me away...

Thanks for your time!

I think you should upgrade to a moving coil cartridge. Something like a Denon 301MkII would do the job. You would of course need a Step up Transformer or a head amp that will run somewhere from $100-$300. I think that would give you the biggest gains.

If you are looking for a subwoofer I'd recommend the Dayton Audio 1500. It's a 15" sub for less than $200. I have one at home and it really does deep bass. It's a lot of sub for not a lot of money. Before that I had dual KEF R400B. Although they were more musical they couldn't get even close to the deep bass this thing puts out. One caveat... It's massive!

 

[62vauxhall]

Agreed. Never heard a Shelter cartridge, I assume they'd be OK but Monitor Audio speakers don't produce prodigious amounts of bass.

 

[twiiii]

Speakers are always the weakest link in the system. The smaller they get the more compromised, and the more power they require. But you have discovered that. If you are determined to stick with small speakers, its going to cost you in a lot of time, effort and money to equal what you had let alone improve upon it. Or give up on speakers and go with quality headphones.

 

[matteos]

Agreed. Never heard a Shelter cartridge, I assume they'd be OK but Monitor Audio speakers don't produce prodigious amounts of bass.

I haven't heard one either. It looks pretty expensive for an MM cart. But in my experience at least... I went from an Ortofon super OM40 to a Denon 103R. Both were comparatively priced but it wasn't even close, the Denon walked all over the Ortofon and then some. MC just sounds better than MM (IME).

 

[Katalyst]

Def tech speakers have a small foot print and still have bass. Try a different amplifier first. Do you have any audio friends to borrow one from?

 

[smhaden]

Wow. Thank you all very much for the responses and insight.

Budget is $500. What's funny about the speakers and receiver is, they maxed my budget when I first bought them. Replacing either would feel like a waste, since I've only had them for a year. But what speaker is out there under $600/pair that is going to be a dramatic improvement over the Bronze 5s? Space is a major issue, unfortunately.

With set up like mine, is investing in moving coil going to make that big of a difference? Or are there some MMs that would play nicely with the Technics?

Oh, and I don't have the means to try alternate amps, though I'd love to hear the setup with something dedicated to the TT. The Onkyo supplies audio to a television as well.

Again, thanks for the variety of responses. Much appreciated.

 

[45rpmspinner]

That Shelter cart is supposed to be pretty nice [basically a Sumiko Pearl with a better stylus].
And, you've got a very nice MM phono stage.

Ever fiddled with the different resistance load settings on the Budgie? Imo, the the wide range of settings available on that unit are one of the major reasons to own it.
While I can't say changing the resistance load on your cart will solve your problems, it will definitely change the sound you get.
Maybe for the better?

 

[ev13wt]

My intent wasn't to compare vinyl to digital, but I appreciate the comment. My first setup was a Thorens TD-160/Shure V15-II/Sherwood S-7100a/Klipsch KG-4s. The bass was actually pretty excellent (and not just loud). The subs on the KG-4s did a nice job. Just no room for those monsters in the current space.

Maybe you should, as it might help you point out what is wrong with the tt. Compare frequency response between the two using the same song from the same album. Make sure both are the same volume.

If they basically sound similar, its not the tt. If the bass is still rolled off, maybe the speakers. Then your sub route might be correct.

 

[Drugolf]

You my friend have hit a plateau, and maybe a ceiling with the gear you have.
Good speakers are often much more capable than people realize and they don't until they feed those speakers with better bigger power. Other than speakers my single best purchase was my amplifier. My speakers all went from good to outstanding.
My guess is those Monitor Audio's can perform better than you are hearing now with a more capable amp driving them. I looked them up on the Monitor audio website an they look pretty good. Not super sensitive at 90db, but they kinda brag about their ability to reproduce bass. I think Katalyst was thinking along these lines with his question above. This way you can determine where you are at with the speakers. If they sound great, but maybe fall a little short on the bottom end, yes a nice musical sub can be added to help them out. Monitor has the matching Bronze W10 that would probably be a great fit.

Of course we could also get into how your room acoustics might have something to do with this as well.

 

[smhaden]

I want to quote all of the responses! This is all helpful.

- Regarding the Budgie: I love the flexibility of this preamp, and I do enjoy adjusting the settings depending on what kind of music I'm listening to. Can't recommend this preamp enough for the price. It does help tame the high end a bit, but doesn't quite solve the low end issue. Adjusting provides either a "warm" or "detailed" effect.

- The Monitor Audios are indeed a decent speaker, and perfect for the limited space I'm working with. But I'll admit they're not in an ideal location, and likely don't have enough space behind or next to them. That's probably limiting the bass quite a bit. Similarly, my Klipsch KG-4s sounded terrible until I placed them properly, and then I fell in love. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about the current placement. They have to live where they live.

- Regarding amps: I've also listened some amp demos (in audio stores, etc.) and there is definitely a difference when you invest in something better than a receiver like mine.

Maybe an amp/sub combo to drive the speakers and enhance the low end. If I can find a dedicated amp to demo at home, I'll start there. Any recommendations for an amp in the $200-$300 (or lower) range? I know that's low - seems like anything moderately decent starts at $600...

Thanks again, all.

 

[doctor fuse]

I went the opposite route you did - Technics deck to Thorens TD160. I found the improvement staggering. But I had a low end belt drive SL220, not an upper-end model like your SL1400.
Still, I am now a believer in suspended tables. And I think the hate-it-or-love-it TP16 tonearm sounds really good. Especially with a good MC cart on it.

 

[Powertech]

Looks like you have a number of issues. Mid/bass drivers of the size you have will never be able to produce a relaxed effortless bass response. It's all about moving air as has been said before. As you turn up the volume or, increase the bass content, the speakers have to move further in the same amount of time. This inevitably introduces distortion as the drivers overshoot at their extremes of motion. At the same time the midrange gets affected as well because the upper frequencies are superimposed on the lower frequencies. As one distorts, the other will also become less accurate. The effect is an aggressive punchy sound.

This will seem a bit weird, but stick with me!
One quick way out is to add a decent self powered sub working below about 100 to 150 Hz (as high as you can get) and put a large polypropylene capacitor (use a couple in parallel) of about 85uF across the terminals for each mid/bass unit. This will roll off the bass response of your existing speakers so that they don't get the low bass letting them concentrate of the upper bass and midrange only. It will take a little bit of playing with, but should give you the result you want. Once you have the sound balance you want (bass-mid integration), you just vary the sub-bass level to suit the recording.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Hello all,

Long time lurker looking for a little opinion or insight. I love this site, and I appreciate being able to come here to learn about the world of analog audio. I'm grateful for any knowledge out there to help upgrade my current system.

I've been rolling with my current setup for about a year, and while I mostly enjoy the sound it feels like it's lacking. I'd like to make an upgrade to one of the components, but I'm not sure which one might make a noticeable difference. Here's what I'm running:

Technics SL-1400
Shelter 201 MM cart
Parks Audio Budgie preamp w/ stock EH tubes
Monitor Audio Bronze 5 speakers
Onkyo TX-8050
Blue Jeans cables

I listen to a lot of 60s r&b, classic rock and jazz. The sound I'm getting has wonderful midrange. The Beatles "Revolver" is spectacular. But the sound can sometimes get fatiguing, and I notice the bass isn't detailed and rolls off, particularly when listening to jazz/r&b.

My first impulse is to upgrade the cart or tonearm. The Technics is a tank, its speed is unwavering and I LOVE the auto return. I don't want to ditch the TT (until I'm ready for something fancy), but that tonearm seems a little cheap, and I don't imagine the wiring is top notch. Or perhaps it's just time to get a higher quality cart, or add a subwoofer to the mix. Maybe my setup is off (that curved tonearm is a SOB to get right). Or maybe I should take up heroin, I mean tube rolling.

Given the sound I'm describing, perhaps the experts can offer some advice. Audiokarma Gods, take me away...

Thanks for your time!

Your Onkyo is the weak link. The rest of the setup deserves a better amplifier when you can afford it.

 

[GYMusic]

Hello all,

Long time lurker looking for a little opinion or insight. I love this site, and I appreciate being able to come here to learn about the world of analog audio. I'm grateful for any knowledge out there to help upgrade my current system.

I've been rolling with my current setup for about a year, and while I mostly enjoy the sound it feels like it's lacking. I'd like to make an upgrade to one of the components, but I'm not sure which one might make a noticeable difference. Here's what I'm running:

Technics SL-1400
Shelter 201 MM cart
Parks Audio Budgie preamp w/ stock EH tubes
Monitor Audio Bronze 5 speakers
Onkyo TX-8050
Blue Jeans cables

I listen to a lot of 60s r&b, classic rock and jazz. The sound I'm getting has wonderful midrange. The Beatles "Revolver" is spectacular. But the sound can sometimes get fatiguing, and I notice the bass isn't detailed and rolls off, particularly when listening to jazz/r&b.

My first impulse is to upgrade the cart or tonearm. The Technics is a tank, its speed is unwavering and I LOVE the auto return. I don't want to ditch the TT (until I'm ready for something fancy), but that tonearm seems a little cheap, and I don't imagine the wiring is top notch. Or perhaps it's just time to get a higher quality cart, or add a subwoofer to the mix. Maybe my setup is off (that curved tonearm is a SOB to get right). Or maybe I should take up heroin, I mean tube rolling.

Given the sound I'm describing, perhaps the experts can offer some advice. Audiokarma Gods, take me away...

Thanks for your time!

What are the dimensions of your listening room? Where are your speakers sitting in this room ( out from the wall or against the wall)? How far away from your speakers do you sit or listen? If you're getting "listening fatigue", it could be due to distortion somewhere in your system. Need more information.