Opinions on Hafler/Dynaco center channel?

Kreshna

...but I have to know.
So I've read interesting opinions on Hafler/Dynaco passive surround circuitry, like Dynaco QD-1 and QD-2. However, I rarely heard opinions on its center channel. I found this interesting though.

A few weeks ago I'd read a thread on center channel and some forum member mentioned using the Dynaco QD-2.

Those things are still being sold as NOS at $30 each and available on Ebay.

I have been listening to it this evening (with Khorn L&R and Heresy center) and think it sounds amazing. I'm hearing more stereo seperation and larger soundstage than before.

Don't know what is in the circuit, but the sound is killer.

Well with Dolby ProLogic center, the center channel tends to narrow the sound field, smashing stereo into mono. On the other hand --at least according to the poster there, Dynaco QD-2 gives more stereo separation and larger sound stage. And if I recall correctly, Dynaco QD's center channel (both QD-1 and QD-2) is L+R instead of L-R.

So, anyone has tried QD-1 or QD-2? What do you think of its center channel? Is that true it's better than ProLogic center channel? Is it as good as fully discrete center, like that of Dolby Digital? I think if Dynaco QD's center is L+R, then it should be pretty much capable to handle hard-panned center (like that in discrete 5.1 audio), but what do you think?
 
Yes, there is. There is only 1 rear speaker. I have the original diagram here somewhere. I think its in the Dynaco PAT-4 assembly manual.
 
The original Dynaco Quadaptor was not set up to deliver a center channel (see http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynaco/components/QD1/). The two rear channels deliver the same signal but out of phase with one another. I've tried the various configurations of the Hafler circuit, and while the surround effect could be compelling, it depended critically on the relative sensitivity and distance from the listener of the speakers. Worked quite well with simply-miked live recordings, and often made hash of more complex studio recordings.
 
Yes, the QD-1 does have a center channel, and two inputs and outputs for rear channels as well (although it's possible they are the same)

I used the QD-1 for years, and never used the center channel, as my main speakers in the video setup are only 6 feet apart.
I used it with a Kyocera receiver. I like the way it sounds, better in fact than the cheapo Sony AV receiver, set to any of the surround modes, that I'm using right now. (Kyocera needs help)
 
Yes, the QD-1 does have a center channel, and two inputs and outputs for rear channels as well (although it's possible they are the same)

I used the QD-1 for years, and never used the center channel, as my main speakers in the video setup are only 6 feet apart.
I used it with a Kyocera receiver. I like the way it sounds, better in fact than the cheapo Sony AV receiver, set to any of the surround modes, that I'm using right now. (Kyocera needs help)
I see. It seems people rarely used Dynaco/Hafler center. :
 
Back in the very early 80's I built a Dynaco Quadaptor box to have "surround" sound. I abandoned the box after about a month. It did not have any provision for a center channel speaker.
 
Ive used a rear center channel before. The old "Phantom channel". Using both (+) B speaker leads to the speaker. Playing only the differences in both channels? It really depended on the recording though. Live recordings seemed to sound the best. I did have a couple records where you could hear backgound sounds like shoe shuffling, tapping ect. that you didnt without the center channel.
 
Just for the record, there is a very large difference between using a quadaptor box for front center and as a single speaker in the rear. My usage as specified by Dynaco was for a rear channel speaker. The number was irrelevant as they were a derived ambience speaker. Multiple speakers were wired in series.
 
the newer panor corp products (black, wide and shallow) DO have the center channel output. the original one that is square and champagne colored only has fronts and rears. i am using the newer panor one (there are more than one model) but haven't used the center. the center i had was not functioning so i gave up on it.

the quadaptor enhances stereo beautifully. all sources pass through the quadaptor, tv, LP, sacd, cd, dvd, everything. mostly people don't notice any rear channels unless i shut them off. live and outdoor stereo recordings, including programs like NYPD Blue are startlingly real sounding at times.

i have a center that i could use, i just might try it.
 
I can't find my PAT-4 manual, however the 4 speaker system was described in it, using 4 identical speakers, using a left, center and right speaker, plus one rear surround speaker. If I could find the damn manual, I'll scan it.
 
Ah, I just found out there are two versions of Dynaco QD-1.

- the earlier, silver-colored QD-1, which doesn't have center channel out.

- the latter, black-colored QD-2, which has center channel out.

Nonetheless, nobody has tried its center channel?
 
Actually, I think they are called the QD-1 and QD-1 Series II. Seems like there was an "L" in there somewhere, too. I played with both, and can report that the center channel L+R signal is so far down in level cf'd with the main speakers as to make the device useless for that purpose, unless the center speaker is much more sensitive than the mains (9db might not be enough), which would be a relatively uncommon assemblage. The newer model's level control is passive, of course, so no gain, and I've never heard one work well and every time the control had to be full up.
 
Actually, I think they are called the QD-1 and QD-1 Series II. Seems like there was an "L" in there somewhere, too. I played with both, and can report that the center channel L+R signal is so far down in level cf'd with the main speakers as to make the device useless for that purpose, unless the center speaker is much more sensitive than the mains (9db might not be enough), which would be a relatively uncommon assemblage. The newer model's level control is passive, of course, so no gain, and I've never heard one work well and every time the control had to be full up.
I see, thanks. Then this opinion baffles me, since the poster seemed to praise Dynaco QD-2 center so much.

I just need a center speaker to anchor a stable center image when sitting off-center. DPL (and DPL II) center is too dominant; it tends to collapse the stereo image and narrow the sound field. This post, however, praises QD-2, saying that the sound stage is larger and stereo separation is better.
 
Mcintosh, Fisher and Marantz L+R mono pre-amp out put was quite popular. And if you used a Mc tube stereo power amp you could derive a center channel by using the 4 ohm sections o f the out put transformers in series for the center channel and the 8 ohm sections for the Left and right. The center channel was L+R canceling the ambient information. If you engaged the phase switch on the Mac pre-amp the L+R became L-r for the center channel but you had to reverse the polarity of the left channel stereo speaker to return its polarity to positive, while maintaining the L-R for the center. B&O made an Ambient attachment for its receivers B channels, which connected the two positive terminals to the speakers with a RLC network to get the desired sound balance from the rear speakers for L-R ambience. I use to connect the network to the monitor amp on C32, 33, 34 pre-amps to drive the rear speakers and if more power need installed a load resistor and then used the signals to drive another amp for more power. I also used Altec and Ampex repeat coils to combine the L&R channels using the isolated output to drive a booster amp for the rear speakers quite effectively. If the Pre-amp didn't have an isolated center channel output I used Klipsch's circuit to derive a center channel feed for the SS Mac amps. Because of the autoformer you couldn't get a derived center channel from the speaker terminals like you could from the tube units using transformers. We used a lot of mono Mac tube amps for Klipsch 3 channel systems. I guess the MC30 and 60 were the most popular followed by the MC 40 and 75. Most of the time we sold 240's or 275's with either 40 or 75 for the center. My favorite was the 3 MC 75's followed by 3 MC 40's. 3 MC 50's were good. One time I used 240's in mono for L and R and a MC 60 for the center. When the 275's came along with Bi-amping the MC 60 still stayed in the center. With SS arriving the center channel went away until HT arrived. Now is use one 207 to tri-amp the left and right and a second 207 to bi-amp the center and one rear with the sides being operated full range. So that's 12 of 14 channels. The remaining channels push remote speakers in the house.
 
I see, thanks. Then this opinion baffles me, since the poster seemed to praise Dynaco QD-2 center so much.

I just need a center speaker to anchor a stable center image when sitting off-center. DPL (and DPL II) center is too dominant; it tends to collapse the stereo image and narrow the sound field. This post, however, praises QD-2, saying that the sound stage is larger and stereo separation is better.

I can understand a change in sound stage/imaging and stereo separation in the context of changes due to rear ambience, but don't quite see how the Dynaco's center channel L+R could change those attributes appreciably (at least, in the direction claimed). Deciding that such changes are for the better is a whole different can o' worms. As you stated your goal, center-fill, does make sense.

You can try the hook-up without using the Dynaco. The basic Hafler hookup has one speaker connected to an amp's L+ and R+, for rear ambience (which is L-R, Left Minus Right). If two speakers are used for rear, one speaker's positive input is connected to amp L+ while the other speaker's positive is connected to amp R+, then the negative inputs of both speakers are connected to one another. For rear channel ambience no connections are made to an amp's negative speaker outputs.

For center channel, the hookup is the same as the two-speaker example, except that you tie the two rear speaker's negative leads at the positive post of a third (center) speaker, then tie the center's negative post to the amp's negative outputs. Note that whether you do the connection with wire or let Dynaco do it for you in a black box, you still need an amp with common ground between channels (or risk amp fatality). Dynaco adds a passive volume control (which you can add to your own circuit if needed) but without a VC you get full output (ie, no attenuation), which I'd bet dollars to donuts still won't be sufficient for your purpose.

The Dynaco was panned by critics, who also noted center channel shortcomings. Works better for ambience, but the effects are very recording-dependent. Since Dolby Pro Logic implemented the matrixing of rear channel as L-R (aka the 'difference' channel, or signal), Dynaco brought the old Hafler ambience circuit back with a center twist as a poor man's HT. YMMV, as always.

FURTHERMORE:

I also use a center speaker in my main rig. In my case, it is to provide dialogue clarity for video, due to getting blown off the sofa during action scenes for videos with very low dialogue output in quiet scenes. Even though I knew it was doomed for failure because of the huge difference in speaker sensitivity, I had an old Dynaco in the closet, so I tried it. Phooey. I've never found the center to have adequate output for any mix of speakers I've tried, but it had been twenty years since the last time I'd attempted this... and there it sat in the closet... and there it again sits.

I wound up feeding the record output of my Emotiva to a second preamp (NuForce). After the Nuforce I Y-d the two channels together on the way to a mono amp (Amphony 200, smaller than a deck of cards) for L+R to a single Minimus 7. For music, I just turn the NuForce off, or, optionally, down. This arrangement also allows me to use just the Minimus 7 and subwoofer for TV while letting my tube amp rest now and then. The NuForce acts as a buffer so that my Emotiva's output retains the stereo signal.
 
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I can understand a change in sound stage/imaging and stereo separation in the context of changes due to rear ambience, but don't quite see how the Dynaco's center channel L+R could change those attributes appreciably (at least, in the direction claimed). Deciding that such changes are for the better is a whole different can o' worms.
Hmmm... I wonder if the poster there praises Dynaco center because it's not loud enough. Maybe because it's not loud enough, it sounds like it widens the sound stage and the likes, because it "releases" the L+R center from the "burden" of producing center image. Well, I don't know.


As you stated your goal, center-fill, does make sense.
Yes. The center speaker doesn't have to be really loud. As long as the center can anchor a stable center image when listened from off-center seating, then I'll be happy with it. Though based on your experience, it seems Hafler/Dynaco center is too quiet for the purpose (providing a stable center image, that is). :(
 
Hmmm... I wonder if the poster there praises Dynaco center because it's not loud enough. Maybe because it's not loud enough, it sounds like it widens the sound stage and the likes, because it "releases" the L+R center from the "burden" of producing center image. Well, I don't know.

Yeah, I wasn't really very happy with the sentence you quoted when I wrote it. It didn't really emphasize that my remarks were specific to the Dynaco. I have heard other devices doing something like you say... it was more like more like the pulling of some instruments/voices toward center (those which belong there) better presenting an image which then seems wider because the center has better separation from mains - in a case where the main speakers were too far apart, which is the point.



Yes. The center speaker doesn't have to be really loud. As long as the center can anchor a stable center image when listened from off-center seating, then I'll be happy with it. Though based on your experience, it seems Hafler/Dynaco center is too quiet for the purpose (providing a stable center image, that is). :(

Yep.
 
the "phantom" channel produced by stereo is quite convincing on its own but movie and tv producers wanted to anchor the center for much of the voice dialog and is sometimes referred to as the dialog channel. if one wanted to make that channel louder in dynaquad, he could use a more sensitive loudspeaker there.

it that the panor Dynaquad unit doesn't provide a level control for that channel, arriving at the happiest balance there would be hit or miss. for that reason i have relied on the phantom center to suffice. early stereo recording actually were done with three channels, left, center, and right. there are even a couple of SACDs released in three channel. ultimately, the stereo market gravitated to two channels which can be nearly as enveloping as multichannel provided it is a very well executed stereo system.

i have all the requisite components to complete a "proper" multichannel system but am happy enough with four speaker dynaquad.
 
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