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overhang measurement for micro seiki mr711

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by butcherevans, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. butcherevans

    butcherevans Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario,Canada
    Hi I am trying to install a denon dl 103 on my micro seiki mr711 and have no idea what the overhang measurement is. I am only guessing at around 51 mm same as technics but have no idea. It seems not to be tracking properly at that measurement a lot of ssss and some igd I think on inner tracks. seems like my 2m red was more forgiving than this mc. Any help greatly appreciated.But even the red has some sss on esses.
     

     

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  2. bob smog

    bob smog Creebling at the Turntables Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,635
    Location:
    Chicago
    Did you mean 15 mm? That's what it is on my Micro Seiki MA-505.

    Edit: it looks like the arm is a MA-202. You can get the manual on Vinylengine. Over is listed as 15mm in the manual.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  3. ConradH

    ConradH Addicted Member

    Messages:
    7,860
    Location:
    Canandaigua, NY
    If you can measure the pivot to spindle distance, grab my arc template generator. It will solve the problem without having to worry about the actual number, though it does get displayed for you if you want it. http://conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

    I've always considered overhang numbers to be suspect and a detriment to getting correct alignment.
     
  4. butcherevans

    butcherevans Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario,Canada
    I was looking more for the measurement from back of headshell to tip of stylus.I have aligned it better but still don't know if cartridge is the correct position on the headshell seems to be my problem.
     
  5. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    Toronto
    Why is that? I've always considered it (along with offset angle) to be the single most important dimension for good alignment.
     
  6. ConradH

    ConradH Addicted Member

    Messages:
    7,860
    Location:
    Canandaigua, NY
    The specific overhang depends on the alignment strategy chosen, so one shouldn't get too hung up on a specific number. It also tends to get carved in stone in product literature, sometimes in error. Since most arms won't go over platter center, it's hard to measure directly. Thus, it's important in concept, but it's a result of other factors and isn't a terribly useful number for someone doing the actual alignment. Now, if you're going with the same alignment chosen by the tt maker, and if they give a head shell dimension to follow, that dimension is useful, but it isn't overhang. It's only a reference dimension that's tied to other numbers that, hopefully, are correct. The fundamental number that everything derives from is the pivot to spindle distance. Once you have that (hopefully measured) number, you have access to every other number, overhang & offset angle includes, that's needed for any given alignment. You can plug it into my template generator to get the rest (and make a custom template) or use the John Elison spreadsheet http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm (bottom of the page) to experiment with various alignments.
     

     

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  7. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    Toronto
    So what do you do in the case of SME where arm distance is varied according to overhang?
     
  8. ConradH

    ConradH Addicted Member

    Messages:
    7,860
    Location:
    Canandaigua, NY
    That's sort of a backwards calculation. I've carefully limited my income so as not to be tempted by those very nice arms, and thus don't have to figure it out. :idea:
    I probably should, as the question comes up regarding the arm template every so often.
     
  9. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    Toronto
    That's hilarious, Conrad. Let me tell you another funny story....

    The deck I use for my needle drops is Mission 775sm w/ 774 arm. The deck is interesting in that the circular armboard is a kind of 3 piece chuck that clamps the arm pillar, which is tightened with a supplied spanner fitted with dogs that engage holes in the face of the chuck...not unlike how a metal lathe is tightened. This then, is secured to the MDF plinth with 2 recessed allen bolts that thread into a cast alloy ring on the underside of the plinth. The board and ring, being circular, are free to rotate if these 2 bolts are not tight, which at one time they weren't....

    The length of the arm itself is adjustable at the base of the wand where it's clamped to the pivot casting, allowing the overhang to be adjusted instead of the usual slots. Just in front of the clamp is where the wires exit the wand and fly off into a socket plugged in behind the armboard.

    I have several arms which allow me to quickly change cartridges without disrupting the VTA, VTF and overhang, all I have to do is unplug the wires and loosen the chuck to change arms. It's a pretty quick and convenient arrangement, and not terribly expensive compared to the cost of some of the exotic headshells.

    So at some point, the wires exiting the wand starts bumping into the clamp, which should not be. Upon closer investigation, the arm distance was revealed to be roughly 10mm too short, a mishap I was inadvertently correcting by shortening the arm length to maintain the overhang. Turns out everytime I tightened the chuck I rotated the whole board, bumping the arm a little closer to the spindle each time, little by little, without even noticing...

    Funny thing is, with the overhang being correct I could still align the stylus to both grids of an arc protractor I had drawn up. There was no evidence of IGD or any other tracking nasties to draw attention to the issue, only the wires pressing up against the wand clamp.

    After fixing the issue and tightening the loose bolts...making sure they were really tight, I learned a lesson in the harmonic distortion caused by angular error. It's pretty subtle....I doubt most people are even aware of it. Of course it's still there, just much less of it.:rflmao:

    Live n learn!
     
  10. butcherevans

    butcherevans Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario,Canada
    Sorry to start the war of words but think I found the issue. Seems my pre amp lost low end on left channel . But only on phono input so off to the shop it goes. works on all other inputs but phono is no low end only mid and hi on left side. both on mm and mc even switched tt still same. thanks for the info.
     
  11. bimasta

    bimasta Super Member

    Messages:
    2,647
    Position of the cart in the headshell doesn't matter as long as the stylus hits the right spot: it will vary from h'shell to h'shell, some are longer than others. But regardless of h'shell type, the cart should be straight in the headshell (unless the cantilever is skew, but that's a whole new story).

    Also, there are two figures mentioned here, 15mm and 51mm. To avoid confusion, the 15mm is distance-beyond-the-spindle (it's where the term "overhang" comes from). The 51mm is distance from-base-of-headshell — of course this only applies to removable headshells. For fixed-headshells, only the 51mm applies.

    But (and this confusion cannot be avoided) both figures may vary depending on pivot-to-spindle distance — mounting a different tonearm, you may get the location of the spindle slightly wrong by a couple mm, but it doesn't matter because the adjustment can be made at the h'shell slots, or the sliding baseplate (eg SME).

    In all cases, using a protractor always sets overhang correctly, for all arm types, despite all the other variables. It's the best way to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017

     

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  12. Balifly

    Balifly Listening Subscriber

    Messages:
    19,622
    Location:
    Vancouver, B.C., Canada
    Try using something like this:
    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R3VsbrZl6aFNF4VOExDamlnD5mmxHgupwkdv3TCtqvY1LTbfVWs11TJ38PbcepXo8adPBYnDWS4R01W7jgJU+V/wDSN8Z/51r+zFaHgzuvozHSAV8u4S+CD239SvpHDamam1V/iRm+0XDg9uaLhfP8dhA2AQR2338l9ZqskEL5x7bY2jhiPeHM93yUwJe7kA0XPdOdh5LHZWAud8MCTNgB/wALEoYU4hwqOBFFt2N3ednuHLkFqVMBUrH32KblZqyiLxAMF/8AU7psgHmoA0Ahrri9nNESLXHfS0LmzRxxu+I5WkZRruCdCJGkWK1sOZgG6WhhwPhjaOviquJ1gyWN+bcjbp3WHJJI34rd6c/F6we8MZ8osOp3K7GUcjABsLrmwGG/UfBdr7hQZVfjFOaCj1RcNEAuHQBKDN073WSjVAOAogHgKICsHb1qrGwlqBNSHkmSGEJ0RzX+yQwgzvCgbZAmyUG8II8XQcURNyo4boGlbvFc9XDgkk6EXPLr1XVujEdfV13jnZdxxljuaYWKwRHwu6EEeRBXJVYRBLiTIaIGxILrXkmF6KqwxEZmaxu3qFwPpn9Nx5/4V2HJMkWeFxrJxdJjiCQ5jv0uFnADcxtfdBtatT1HvWG8tsT3bv4LrrYb4g49O4jcEXCpqU6tyDqYbB0mA2RpG5Oq0ZmoY6k4wDH9rrHzWlSaO/iuDGUWRL2hwkC4nUx5XPgq8Nw6i4nIXNyjMSx5AAmL3j/hAer4VT+IL0JwmZ308V4TA4RgaHnF12NzZRfQ31lttN1s4nB+6MPxeJcbEBrwCQXZRGUXkwsdT7JdqN363qKbGsI0BBmTyHNbvC/a7Cs+D3nvKh0p0g6q8/7WAx4wvneE4PhqtTK+nVebH+dVLx1tmI+q977JVaNIPYwU6MOLP0tEloLCNJs5qrmknW3pDUxFZvwtOGB/U8NdUHZgJa09yeywm+zeHpPORhqVnEe8q1CalVxN+Xwtv/aF6nB5iMzpBMGDt8IBA8Qfqi/Ctd8wmwB5GNJGhT8jt308LxbgbHxnGl29DsQdiOax38Ih5AETcn7n/C+gcXbSpNL3ua1oG/kAvmPtB7Ul5cyjLWOsTu4D7DdZ55zGdjDC5enLxjFspEspnM4TLtgNvFZeDwpecztJ33TYPAF3xO05c1pF40AXn8nJcq9Dj45jEKpc5WPPkqyFg2AJKlgOqcjwSPEpAHFFrbKBiB5bIM2VBDMUUFotSXW23VgbCgCd+qZqXBTKNUHaoDqgha6VaD0VQ7Kxmt0A8IOQzFDNzQZXHS6sAVQZurGOQRm6lc2Iwe7bHyKvD7lHNddTKxzZtj1JBhwg80AzldbPuw4Xgrlq8LH6THdb4fIv6wy4JfTibSk32uPsrxgmumZvlBgxIaSQLbSUj6NVu0+aDcW4atHmFtObGsbw5Rr8N4WM4Mu+YPgmbhjmb8wR9F1V+DMlxBcJDQ1o0Zldn+HpOxWZh+PFn6PP/Cv/AO5j/wDmPr/hczKeW9u9Xx1pucN4S1tQP/WR8xyjUydAOQ15L2/BOHtLjVc1ubTNAzHxXy7/ALrq/pawdxKWt7UYypb3rgOTPh+11t9+MYfRnX23FY+lSE1KjWD+5wC8zxn29oUwRR/mu2Ojf3K+VmjVeZcSTzcZPmuqlg41MrLL5Mnpvj8efpuK8TxGLqZnuLuQ0a3sNlMPw0Ngm58guqI0sEnvZUuXJcqpxwkOdFSQoXwUpK4dhKLgFIlTTYnqgFN7JHNVhYljzSANco0yiBdRoQDZVEsqI0SvdO5yFNiLtUGrY63dFolECyLiZQZxr0QJ3UNglJTKJmUcbqZEA0z0SB0rDrKZ+iDdEUCUrWlEOmU4O6ALFM6Gv4VZGqCdDHymyg6gFc9PqrKZTA1sPTP6B9FV/C09coVjkHFG6NC2hT2aPonpQFVmi/ruoHSgL3VEheFVUJ19dUAbpULAbKDRK8JWBA0jz0lECUCCmDUHpJv+UDKLQogFBhQoAXRPdIEkpoKVOwXQBIUTNYigbVUdUY/CiiYA6IDT1yUURBUOqLtkFECINuysYdVFEAHaBVtN/qookUPTTnZRRMFO6rq6KKJwX0XD6eKtb6+qiidKGGiFTQKKJOoqarW6BFRIv1DohuoonTR+iLxp2/KiiVAs08FOfrZRREMdku47H8KKIc/iO1HrdLVUURTqBKxBRInQFFFEB//Z Kenwood 45 adapter.jpg :music:
     

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