Pioneer SPEC-4 repair and restoration thread!

Discussion in 'Pioneer Audio' started by mattsd, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. petervv

    petervv Member

    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Netherlands
    All,

    Thanks for the compliments!

    >What happened with your relay to transformer clearances?
    >I have a spec-4 that had the caps and relay rammed into the chassis/transformer...

    The Omron MY-02 is a tight fit in my case, I've got maybe 1mm of air.

    >not many original parts left...

    Indeed, just the connectors, bias diodes (all were intact!) thermistors and off course the inductor, see picture.

    >No ceramics----EXCELLENT!

    I replaced all with MKP or Mica, not for reliability but for sound.
    Also replaced the Polyester caps with MKP, I don´t want to start a thread about the sound of capacitors, but ceramics and polyester are ´not done´ in high end audio, and it´s a very small extra investment.....

    Has anyone ever searched for a replacement for the mains relays and found something suitable?

    Next project will be a PL630 with just about all electronics problems I could find in the various PL630 threads.

    regards, Peter
     

    Attached Files:

  2. omri617

    omri617 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Location:
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    Why did you leave D2 + D3 ?
    And TH1 + TH2 thermistors?
     
  3. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Simple, those parts can no longer be sourced, they are unique. Just like the heat sinks, the coil and the connectors.

    I will be on the mains relay soon enough, with several spec-4's waiting for attention.

    If there is just one relay, it's a model KU (120v only) using Pioneer parts number asr-041, a 120vac relay (dpdt?) and being a chassis mount with lower ears, that is wired in, there are few constraints on it.\
    This MIGHT be ok, according to the schematic :653-LY1F-AC1 as it shows a SPST normally open relay.


    However the model S is the 110-120-220-240 using dual asr-044 relays. They are both chassis mount with ears, and I could see no normally closed (clipped) contacts, but I could maybe see double poles, I could not open them to check.

    I suspect they both can be:mouser.com's
    653-LY2F-AC1 - a DPDT relay - this should help you find equivalents.
    mounted with four standoffs.

    This post Pioneer SX-1010, 939, 838, et.al., Relay Replacement gets you a head start as to the relays with ears - at the TOP (sadly) and what is done to compensate.

    p.s Where did you get the beads to raise the resistors? not all needed to be raised, especially if they were flameproof resistors, which their color seems to indicate they are.
    also I realize that ceramic caps are not for passing quality audio, but I usually thought they were fine for bypassing HF.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  4. petervv

    petervv Member

    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Netherlands
    hi Mark,

    The relay you propose looks like a drop in replacement, unfortunately I didn't research long enough and have already ordered other relays. These are PCB type relays and will need a small board, I think it will look ok, I'll post the results.

    I also found this thread on the subject: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-367581.html

    >However the model S is the 110-120-220-240 using dual asr-044 relays

    I indeed have the S model, even the model with the thermal fuses inside the transformers, which are in series with the incoming mains.

    >p.s Where did you get the beads to raise the resistors?

    actually, I found them in a drawer at work..., I did look if I could buy them at Mouser/Farnell but couldn't find them.

    >not all needed to be raised

    I raised all that had a sleeve (on one of my boards)

    >especially if they were flameproof resistors, which their color seems to indicate they are.

    they are not flameproof, standard KOA Speer from Mouser, I looked at the flame proof version but couldn't find all values I needed.

    >>also I realize that ceramic caps are not for passing quality audio, but I usually thought they were fine for bypassing HF.

    Ceramics are non-linear and therefore introduce distorsion, you can find some info here http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm#2.4.
    I don't know if it's the ceramics but the SPEC-4 sounds a lot better (smoother, more musical) then my recapped SA-9500II I was using as a power amp up till now.

    I have a shoot out planned with some friends, we will be comparing the SPEC-4 against Odyssey Audio Stratos Mono amps and Hypex nCore 400, driving Magnepan MG1.6 speakers.

    regards, Peter
     
  5. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time

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    I have found improvements when all main caps are bypassed by 2.2uf (or 1uf) stacked film capacitors, that smoothness, regardless of model. On the higher end stuff, there are ceramic bypass caps across the power filter electrolytics in the amplifiers. So they (pioneer's engineers) did have an inkling of the problem. Of course I go for stacked film caps there too.
     
  6. petervv

    petervv Member

    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Netherlands
    The new mains relays are in, problem solved, I used these: http://nl.farnell.com/te-connectivity-schrack/7-1393243-8/relay-power-pcb-115vdc-8a/dp/2060849, had already ordered them when Mark suggested the LY2F.

    I'm not too proud of the install, I should have made the board a bit larger than the hole in the chassis, would have looked better. Next time I'll use the LY2F.

    All the wire-wrap connections on the fuse board were soldered, somebody before me had been trying to fix the problem but didn't succeed.

    regards, Peter
     

    Attached Files:

  7. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time

    Messages:
    20,658
    Location:
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    I just finally found the mouser number for the standoffs, for the LY relays

    from my notes:
    24v dc 4pdt chassis mount using upper ears 24v 653-LY4F-DC24 MOUSER.COM stock level 14 @ $11.61
    24v dc dpdt chassis mount using upper ears 24v 653-LY2F-DC24 MOUSER.COM stock level 51 @ $ 6.55
    being chassis mount, conversion from doubled 4pdt to dpdt is easy
    standoff from mouser 15mm need two per side: 728-FM2110-3005-A due to TOP ears!!
    728-FM2110-3005-A is 4.5mm od 3mm x 0.5 thread 15mm male female aluminum 0.63 /100: 0.43
    728-FM2110-3005-SS is 4.5mm od 3mm x 0.5 thread 15mm male female stainless steel 1.07 /100: 0.74
    728-FM1262-3005-A is 4.5mm od 3mm x 0.5 thread 15mm female female aluminum 0.59 /100: 0.40
    728-FM1262-3005-SS is 4.5mm od 3mm x 0.5 thread 15mm female female stainless steel 0.97 /100: 0.67

    I am leaning toward using one male/female and one double female, leaving female threaded holes in both ends of the stand offs, due to the difficulty I had getting the 3mm threads of the males into a sx-1010's 3mm threaded chassis holes, and the lack of 3mm threaded 30mm long standoffs.
    So
    I enlarged the holes to 3mm clearance and used 3mm x 0.5 steel screws instead on both ends.


    Considering yours:
    All things considered ( I wouldn't let those relay mounts bother me much) a great job. :yes:
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  8. omri617

    omri617 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Location:
    Israel
    I'm sorry but the list is a bit not organized , is this the correct BOM list ? :

    647-UPW2A101MHD | 1
    647-UPW1V101MPD | 1


    647-UKL1H2R2KDDANA | 1
    647-UPW1H2R2MDD | 4
    647-UPW1A221MED | 1
    647-UPW1A471MPD | 4
    647-UPW2A3R3MDD | 2
    647-UPW2A470MPD6 | 2
    647-UPW2A331MHD | 2
    647-UPW1V330MDD | 1
    647-UPW1V470MED | 5
    647-UPW1H3R3MDD | 2
    647-UPW2A470MPD6 | 1
    647-UPW2A101MHD | 8
    667-ECQ-V1H224JL | 2
    512-KSC1845FTA | 4
    512-KSC2383YTA | 2
    512-KSC945CYTA | 2
    512-KSC2690AYS | 1
    512-KSD1616AGBU | 2
    653-MY2-02-DC48 | 2
    652-3386H-1-501LF | 2
    652-3296P-1-501LF | 2


    512-KSA1013YBU | 2
    512-KSC945CYTA | 2
    512-KSC3503DSTU | 1
    512-KSA1381ESTU | 1
    512-KSC2073TU | 1
    512-KSA940TU | 1
    863-MJ21194G | 4
    863-MJ21193G | 4
    660-MF1/4DCT52R22R0F | 1
    660-MF1/2CCT52R2000F | 1
    660-MF1/2LCT52R221J | 1
    660-MF1/2DCT52R1000F | 1
     
  9. vsat88

    vsat88 Like my Bluetooth ?

    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    Phenix City, AL.
    Sorry as I am a NooB. I have a few questions.

    1st. what does BOM stand for ?
    2nd. I see a parts list but where do I order from Mouser Digikey or some from both ?
    3rd. Can I get original light bulbs and if so where please.

    I am just trying to get one up and running (SPEC 4) and I will decide if I going for the full re build after that. I know I have bad output transistors on one channel and a bad driver transistors as well as bad resistors and diodes on the same channel. I intend on replacing all the parts on both boards including output TX and the driver TX on both channels then on to other parts in the amp. I know about the dim bulb tester and I have a veriac. With regards, Jim H.
    Oh BTW. if someone really wants to make it easy on me please send me a complete parts list of what I need to re build both output boards and where I should buy them. I would like to go back completely stock if possible Thanks, Jim H.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  10. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time

    Messages:
    20,658
    Location:
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    Any further exploration of this matter really deserves it's own thread please.

    OK, here goes:

    Bill of materials in the service manual.
    Our defacto "BOM list" is a text block that can be cut and pasted into mouser.com's parts list importer tool (free registration required)

    The bulkier part of the list preceeding the text block shows the board number and specific component referenced.

    The "BOM list" is an extraction of just the mouser parts numbers from this list.

    They are mouser part numbers

    AK's own dgwojo is the lamp guru

    master list of lists

    from the spec-4 listed thread:

    Does this cover all your needed transistors?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  11. omri617

    omri617 Super Member

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    Location:
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    Mark your posts are just extraordinary!
     
  12. vsat88

    vsat88 Like my Bluetooth ?

    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    Phenix City, AL.
    This is unbelievable ! Now I know (I think) what to do. It pretty much makes sense now. I do have the original schematic from Pioneer that came with the amp so that will come in handy. I suppose as far as outputs and driver TX. I order X 2... And lastly, Please tell me the etiquette Markthefixer am I the one who should start another thread if so I am more that willing to do so and I thank all the above for your help !
     
  13. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time

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    Yes, please start your own thread if you have more questions.
     
  14. jackflack

    jackflack AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Antioch, California
    EchoWars,

    Did you ever start another thread on how you did this?




     
  15. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

    Messages:
    28,443
    Location:
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    I didn't. Sometimes I just get into the moment and forget that I wanted to document it.

    Sorry about that. I don't see a lot of Spec 4's and should have followed up.
     
  16. IMF_Pioneer

    IMF_Pioneer New Member

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Australia
    Hi Peter,

    Just going back to the two photos of both your amp boards a some posts back now,

    Am I correct in saying that the two Amp boards are from totally different units as the KU variant has 2 capacitors on the lower area of each side of the board while the S and G Models only have 1 cap on each side ?
     
  17. vsat88

    vsat88 Like my Bluetooth ?

    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    Phenix City, AL.
    IMF, I was partly involved in the above thread but the last time someone commented was in or around September 2016 as far as I can tell so this is a pretty old thread. I am unsure what you mean by your above post but I wanted to let you know that there is someone still here following. Hopefully someone can help and answer your questions.
     
  18. zebulon1

    zebulon1 Cleaned up the shop and half finished sets. Subscriber

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