Pioneer SX-1010, 939, 838, et.al., Relay Replacement

Discussion in 'Pioneer Audio' started by EchoWars, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    OK...someone is going to embarrass me by showing me a source for the orignal style. I'm a pretty good scrounger for parts, but I've not yet found a replacement for the original flange-mounted relays for the Pioneer receivers and amps that used them. The original relay is a 4PDT 24VDC job identical in every way to the modern Omron MY4-DC24...identical in every way except one...the original relay has a mounting flange at the 'bottom', or the end of the relay with the coil and contact solder tabs. Omron does not offer an MY-style relay in any contact configuration with a flange (perhaps they did at one time, and perhaps some of the amps and receivers that I've serviced used them, but I do not recall and it's a moot point anyway since they do not seem to be offered by ANY manufacturer now).

    All is not lost...Omron does offer a relay with a mounting flange in the 'LY' configuration. This is a DPDT relay rather than the original 4PDT, but the DPDT LY-style is rated for 10A per contact, and is a perfectly usable substitute for any amp or receiver that was originally equipped with a 4PDT MY-style relay. The coil current is even the same as the original 4PDT MY-style relays (37mA), so no changes to the driver circuit are necessary.

    Omron offers two LY-style relays with a flange...the LY2S, with the flange mounted on the solder-tab end of the relay, and the LY2F, with the flange mounted on the end of the relay opposite the solder tabs. Unfortunately, the LY2S (the one which we'd much prefer) does not seem to be easily available. I've done a fair bit of searching, and it appears that unless you're prepared to order 100 of these relays (or more), you're out of luck.

    Eh...but not totally out of luck. If you look at how the relay is mounted, there's no reason you can't use standoffs to mount the LY2F-style relay, and since the rectangular cutout for the relay is nice and tight, allow this cutout to stablize the lower end of the relay. The original holes are even the right size and spacing to mount a new LY2F with no drilling or tapping.

    Here's a pic of the original 4DPT MY-style relay (left), and the DPDT LY2F-DC24 replacement (right). Digikey PN #Z191-ND.

    [​IMG]

    The distance from the underside of the mounting flange of the new LY2F relay to the end of the relay is about 33.5mm. Two 15mm male/female standoffs will allow the end of the relay to extend into the original mounting hole for support. The original relay is held in place with two 3mm machine screws, and these standoffs (Digikey PN #24315K-ND) happen to have the threads we need. So, two standoffs are threaded together, and mounted in the original threaded chassis holes with a flatwasher (the threads do not extend all the way to the body of the standoff, so the small washer is needed). I also used a dab of Loctite on the threads.

    Once these are threaded in, two washers are placed on top of the standoffs to prevent stress cracking of the flange mounts (I used a small dab of grease to hold them in place), and then the relay is set into position. The screws which were used to mount the original relay are given a washer (again, to help prevent stress cracking of the plastic), and threaded in to hold the relay. Here's the end result on an SX-737:

    [​IMG]

    Once that's done, it's simply a matter of soldering the wires back in place.

    Like I said, someone is prolly gonna jump in here and tell me where I can get the proper relay, but I looked. I really did. In the meantime, this works, and it is done without having to do anything too bizzare, or having to make any mods to the chassis.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016

     

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  2. Arkay

    Arkay Lunatic Member

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    Tsk-tsk...you didn't even bother to make sure the vertical edges of the standoffs were perfectly aligned when it was all tightened down, to give the neatest visual appearance. :nono:

    JUST KIDDING, of course! Great fix for an awkward situation. Brilliant work, as usual, and a useful lesson to all of us lesser mortals trying to learn to do these things even a fraction as well as you do. Thanks for sharing that. I may have need of this when I get around to renovating my SX-1050.

    Just out of curiosity, how much would it cost to order the minimum 100 of those relays that ARE correct? Maybe if enough AKers pooled together to place the order, and each bought several spares? Alternatively, who is buying them: manufacturers only? Would some volume buyer be willing to part with a few from a larger order?

    In the absence of such a solution, your work-around looks great! :thmbsp:
     
  3. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    Believe it or not, I almost disassembled it to line 'em up. :)
    :dunno: Since I have a neat solution, the last thing I want is to deal with a large parts house with my piddly $600 order and wait 6 months for them to show up. I hate those guys. They barely understand the word 'Customer', and 'Service' is what they have done to their car. Certainly they've never used the two words together in the same sentence, let alone have a vague concept of the meaning. No thank you...my solution works just fine.
     
  4. ruesselschorf

    ruesselschorf Well-Known Member

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    Hello Glen,

    a socket for MY - style relais does fit in the Pioneer chassis cut-out. See page 6, bottom left Finder 94.34 on the pdf:

    http://www.finder.de/comuni/pdf/S55EN.pdf

    Helmut

    Btw, last year I ordered 20 special MY-style relais (48V coil, 4PDT, print mount, gold contacts) at Finder Italy, had to wait 4weeks, price was 50% higher than for a standard Finder relay from a distributor.....
     
  5. merrylander

    merrylander AK Member

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    Funny part is that I went through both DigiKey's and Mouser's catalogs looking for just this relay with no more luck than you had. I ended up getting the cover of and sliding a burnisher between front and back contacts, solving the problem.
     
  6. Oerets

    Oerets AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Will the old plastic cover go onto the new relay . Recycled to fit old mounting ?

    I'm guessing that it wouldn't be that easy !


    Barney
     
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  7. Twenty20Man

    Twenty20Man Is that you Michael?

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    A day in the life...great work glenn...
     
  8. soundkrazy

    soundkrazy New Member

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    I don't know if this will work for you but I work with electronic boards and circuits all day. What I've done in the past to solve your very problem is get a solder in relay base. After you install the base, you get "clips" to hold the relay into the base. In some cases, Omeron has offered this as a replacement to the flange style relays in the industrial world.
     
  9. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    The socket won't work in all of these...look at the second pic I posted. The cutout for the relay has a 'shoulder' on the L and R sides of it, and a socket won't seat without grinding this off. Plus, I avoid sockets when I can...adds another problematic interface.

    The relay base is a different size. I suppose you could file or grind on the new relay base to make the old cover fit, but would you rather do that, or use this simple solution?

    Of course, the contact plating is quite thin, and burnishing the contacts is a last resort when you have no other option. It'll give a couple years more life to the relay, but it's far from the preferred solution. I've been burnishing contacts on amps are receivers that used the flange-mount relay for years, and wanted a better solution...one where a new relay is doing duties rather than trying to squeeze a couple of extra years out of the 'already-ancient-and-overdue-for-replacement' original one.
     
  10. Oerets

    Oerets AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    [
    I was just woundering , couldn't tell from picture . :scratch2: Figured the old cover fitting over new relay would be to simple .

    What you worked out looks to be a first class job . How much trouble was opening up the board to except the larger leads ?



    Barney
     
  11. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    You lost me here...what board and what leads?
     

     

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  12. Oerets

    Oerets AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Looked over your picture again ,
    See now that it not on a board . Old one looked like it had been on a pc board to me . Not familiar with this model .

    Barney
     
  13. SPL db

    SPL db It's all about the music! Subscriber

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    I think that he's talking about the different orientation of the leads of the two relays.

    Barney, the space below the relay is just an open hole, it doesn't matter which way
    the leads are.

    EDIT: Sorry Barney, crossed posts there...

    Scott
     
  14. Einar

    Einar New Member

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    Would this be a fit for my SX-939(Euro), with a relay called TYPE MS4U, 24VDC, produced by DAHCHI/DEC?
     
  15. markthefixer

    markthefixer On Hiatus, dealing with Dad's estate full time Subscriber

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    Edit June 14. 2014 - go down to post 30 to see which relays are used for a LOT of common Pioneer receivers.


    Yes, the relay is mounted in the metal frame, with wires running to it, making it much easier to make connections.

    securing the relay to the frame might take some ingenuity.


    edit: 11/18/2010 - I have had very good luck removing the operating core of omron's ly2f-dc24 mouser part number 653-ly2f-dc24 relay from it's case and inserting it into the original relay's case. It has worked quite a few times. There may be a 180 degree rotate, but that just means since the case is externally symmetrical that the lettering on the case faces the opposite way while getting the pins aligned correctly in the chassis.


    but it is just that, luck - so if it doesn't work (different manufacturer of Pioneer's relay) , you are no worse off, eventually put the core back in after you mount the new case, with standoffs, as per EchoWars's thread....
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  16. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    Pioneer used several different relay manufacturers, and I too had success (once!) putting a new LY2 relay into an old flanged plastic case, but I can't remember what that relay was where I was able to do it. Since then, I have not been able to duplicate that success...none would fit. At any rate, the standoffs are still an option, and work great.
     

     

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  17. avionic

    avionic " Black Knights " Subscriber

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    How about just swapping the plastic cases between the new relay and old relay.:scratch2:
     
  18. Watthour

    Watthour Electron Rancher - JS3600

    At the risk of being accused of piling on in an old thread, had you considered the possibility of a chassis mount socket? If the hole is/was not the correct size a Greenlee punch could open it to the correct opening. Although they are not cheap, you only need to purchase it once.

    [​IMG]

    I like your standoff solution, however.
     
  19. EchoWars

    EchoWars Hiding in Honduras

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    Didn't read the whole thread, did you? But...a few of the old plastic covers will fit a new relay, however, most will not.
    You didn't read the whole thread either. :) It isn't a simple hole...there's a lip that would have to be ground off to fit a socket (visible in the second pic). Simply using standoffs is by far the easiest solution, and requires no modification to the chassis (and takes a lot less time).
     
  20. Watthour

    Watthour Electron Rancher - JS3600

    Nope. I only skimmed. It seems the older I get the worse my focus and attention ... What were we talking about again?

    As I mentioned, I like your solution - No unrecoverable modifications from original.
     

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