Preamps with phono and a remote - one listener's journey

[audiodon]

Started messing with the 6SN7s.
Went right to the top of the heap.
In the primary position affecting both the phono and line stages I'm using RCA triple mica smoky black plate 5692s. In the line stages gain position, I'm using Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA with the brown bases and the WGT style plates, not the later T or V style plates. I'm not sure if these are considered "chrome domes" or not. There's so much information and misinformation on the web that I just can't tell.

This has tightened up the bass more for all input types.

I've decided that I will upgrade the four .22uf coupling caps, but haven't decided the replacement caps yet. Probably Teflons, but possibly something else.

 

[audiodon]

Spent some more rolling time on this today. Based on a comment in this thread,
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=507592
I am working to balance the phono section, which now sounds superb - thanks to the introduction of the Sylvania 3 mica gold brand USAF 5751s, with the line stage, which needs help in separating instruments and voices and extension in both the highs and tightening and extension in the lows.

The line stage, in comparison, is now less articulate, with less separation between instruments when playing comparable music, than the phono stage.
Four examples:
1. Frederick Fennel with the Cleveland Symphonic Winds plays Holst, Handel and Sousa on Telarc digital vinyl and Telarc Digital SACD (50khz master)
2. Beck Sea Change on 180G vinyl and SACD.
3. K.D. Lang Ingenue on vinyl and CD.
4. Berlioz Requiem/Shaw/Atlantic Symphony on Telarc DMM vinyl and CD.

I swapped the positions of the 5692s and the Sylvie 6SN7WGTAs. I substituted Tung Sol tall bottle 6SN7s for both the 5692s and the Sylvies, with both pairs in both positions.
I swapped positions also. For now, I've removed the Sylvies and have the 5692s in the driver position and the Tung Sols in the preamp position.
I have one Raytheon tan base black flat plate D-getter 6SN7WTG with copper risers and have another on the way. These are supposedly more forward tubes.
Now those of you who know my taste know that I'm not a forward sound kind of guy, but these 5692s are a bit on the neutral side and I'm hoping the Raytheons will add the extension I'm missing on both sides of the midrange in the line stage.

At this point I'm looking for the separation of instruments and voices in the line stage that I've achieved in the phono stage. I'm closer, but not there yet.

 

[audiodon]

In the inspired thinking or damned fool department, I decided to spring for a quad of 0.22uf 600 volt Vcap CuTF Copper and teflon caps.
I've noticed a certain glassiness in the mid-treble in this Cary preamp that I have noticed before in Kimber caps in some positions, and, assuming it's not the Dale metal film resistors in this unit, I've decided to go for the best new thing to attack the problem that tube rolling isn't fixing.

I've tried Relcap TFTs. I like them. Then I tried Psvane (supposedly) Teflon caps, which I do find to to have what I do call a teflon characteristic. What is that characteristic? Let me do my best to explain by analogy.
I have a Mel Torme/Buddy Rich disc titled "Together Again for the First Time".
Later, I found a direct-to-disc version of the same disc.
I'm going to do an analogy using this recording.
The version that's the result of a master tape has a certain amount of reel-to-reel mid-bass belly. It's a beguiling and seductive sound and we hear it on most vinyl that isn't from a digital source.
The direct-to-disc version does not have that mid-bass belly sound. Which I prefer depends. Ultimately, I gravitate to the direct-to-disc, but noted listeners that have visited openly and unashamedly prefer the tape version.

The teflon caps that I've used so far are like the direct-to-disc version of the disc.
They're quite linear and neutral, but lack the warmth of the master tape sound. Whether that's "correct" or "better" remains to be decided, but I know that ultimately I'll train my ears to prefer the teflon (direct-to-disc) sound. I always gravitate away from what isn't natural in music playback.

The Psvane caps went into the ratrig, which shows the issue most clearly. How this neutrality manifests itself in the ratrig is best characterized as "not warm".
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=6401203&postcount=16
For the first time ever with a Fisher, I've moved the bass control to the 1:30 position to warm up a too neutral presentation. After a 100+ hour burn-in, moving the bass tone control a bit helps. The loudness contour affects the lower bass, which doesn't have a problem. There's plenty of low-bass extension. This is about mid-bass and what it provides to the palpable listenability of a good recording.
If this is like the Relcaps, it'll warm up after another hundred or so hours of use and I'll be returning the bass control back to neutral or closer to neutral.

Vcap CuTF: http://www.v-cap.com/cutf-capacitors.php
Here's a gushing endorsement: http://www.v-cap.com/audiotechnique-v-cap-review.php.
It says what I've also experienced with two types of teflon caps. OK, one official Teflon and one possible non-teflon, but the possible non-teflon confirms my other teflon experience and sure sounds teflon to me. In JonL's 3rd (newest) part of his Capacitor Musings article. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0411/capacitor3.htm. On the third page, Vcap CuTF caps are mentioned. The part that rings true and echoed through my mind for weeks after reading the article was the part about the body of the music being there with these caps as opposed to there being a bit of a "direct-to-disc" (doesn't meet pre-conceived expectations) sound.

So, the journey continues with this preamp.

 

[audiodon]

The Vcap CuTFs have arrived and I installed them last night. Pictures will follow.
I listened for a short time last night but was to tired to listen critically so I won't put forth any initial impressions.
I am now burning them in running a tuner into the preamp.

Vcap goodness and fabulous tubes. A little burn-in and then we'll see.

Kimbers out:

Vcaps in:

Vcaps ready for their close up

 

[byoungman1]

I am working to balance the phono section, which now sounds superb - thanks to the introduction of the Sylvania 3 mica gold brand USAF 5751s, with the line stage, which needs help in separating instruments and voices and extension in both the highs and tightening and extension in the lows.

Glad you finally got around to using those

 

[audiodon]

I've been running this continuously now for seven days without having it drive an amp, just to ripen the Vcaps. On Sunday I switched from a tuner to the phono input and put the phono on repeat play. Tomorrow, seven days minus about 10 hours (approximately 160 hours considering the timing), I'll put it back into my office system and send along some initial impressions.

 

[audiodon]

Involving.

Did the clouds part and did the angels herald the introduction of something amazing? No.
Did this change my life and the way my family members treat me? No.
Did theme music rise up as my face brightened and did the camera pan away to a larger context? No.

Did introducing the Vcaps into this Cary SLP-98P improve the voicing in a way that satisfies me? Yes.

I'll try and give my impressions to the best of my ability without using audio magazine superlatives, but getting the message across.

What's different:
1. This preamp is known for lack of low bass extension and a somewhat warm mid-bass presentation. That is not true for the way my preamp is now voiced.
2. Bass extension is extraordinary and there is no bloat. It's very SACD-like, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.
3. CDs are now sonically competitive with vinyl versions with the exception of gated out room reflections on the CDs, the dithering and other mastering anomalies of the respective media.
Associated equipment:
Interconnects are my own Canares that use coax video cable. Very low capacitance.
Lexicon RT-20 universal digital player - a great unit with a slightly laid-back presentation.
Turntable is a totally tweaked out Thorens TD320 with stock tonearm and an Audio Technica AT440ML (not MLa) cartridge.
I did swap the Tung Sol 6SN7s in the line stage preamp position for a pair of 1959 Raytheon brown base JAN CRP 6SN7WGT black plates. Even with the Vcaps somewhat burned-in, with the Tung Sols in there, it sounded good, but I was looking for more separation of instruments and less accent on the midrange. Now, with the Raytheon 6SN7s in the line preamp positions, the digital player competes very well with the phono. The key difference is a matter of presentation and amplitude only.

Impressions:
Phono: Very cohesive, involving, totally fun. It exposes that I could probably stand a cartridge upgrade.
Digital: Competes very closely with the phono stage, accounting for the differences in mastering between players (digital and vinyl), tube stages used, the RIAA EQ in the pre, and the SACDs and vinyl or CDs and vinyl media comparisons.

Sampled pieces:
Vinyl:
1. Mahler's 2nd Symphony/ Seiji Oszawa, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Marilyn Horne Mezzo Soprano. Phillips Digital Recording 1987.
1. Digital: Mahler's 2nd Symphony/Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, Lorraine Hunt Leiberson Mezzo Soprano. SACD 2004
What I look for in this piece is how absorbing the vocal is in Das Knaben Wunderhorn (movement 4) and how the tempo is rendered in the scherzo that follows (the start of movement 5). There's a section a minute or two into the scherzo where the large string basses drive the tempo and I listen for the cohesiveness of that section and how percussively they propel the piece forward.
Oh, and I have heard James Levine conduct this piece in Symphony Hall, so I have some memory of hearing this live.
I look for these recordings to evoke that live performance memory. The better evoked, the better the recording renders the performance and the less noise, digititis and detritus distract from the listening experience.
I have to say that both were great, with somewhat different performances and masterings making me not wish to switch from digital to vinyl or vinyl to digital at any time.
I felt no need to switch off whichever media I was listening to.
Off to a good start.

Berlioz Requiem:
Vinyl:
2. Robert Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony - Telarc digital DMM (direct metal master) recording.
2. Digital: CD of the same performance: Telarc digital CD.
I listen to the last piece: Agnus Dei.
Honestly, I had a hard time turning off the CD to go back to the vinyl. There was no mud, instruments and individual voices in the chorus stood out as individuals and not as a muddy group, the dynamics of the swells was satisfying, and the way the piece held together was all superb. I was tempted not to switch back to a DMM vinyl on this performance. That's quite something. DMM vinyl is arguably the world's best.

3.
Alison Krauss and Robert Plant: Raising Sand on 180G vinyl and on CD.
Selection: Trampled Rose.
It was obvious to me that the CD was heavily compressed and the bass of that enormous kick drum was enhanced for the CD.
Alison's reedy voice was very clear and clean without being strident, though the CD had her back a bit in the mix because the kick drum was so far forward. There was nothing unpleasant about listening to this.
More later. Gotta go.

 

[Art K.]

Good read, Audiodon. There appear to be a number of folks here reaching a level of satisfaction with their setups.

 

[audiodon]

I was pressed for time and writing the details takes some time the other day, so I'm back to it.

There was no muddiness or indistinctness in the classical music, regardless of the media or the players used, but I did pick good recordings to begin with.

Enough of the classical. On to Jazz.
In the Jazz department, or lightweight jazz for you real jazzers, on the intro to Joni Mitchell's "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter", with Jaco Pastorius, everything was there and everything was present and pleasant. The bass was out far in front and clear and clean, on both the vinyl and the HDCD encoded CD I used for comparisons.

In ArtK's honor I pulled out my copy of Miles Davis's Nefertiti and played that on vinyl.
Great small combo stuff, heavily panned to one side or the other, on 180G legacy vinyl. On Hand Jive, I found my ability to differentiate the instruments very clear. The ride symbol felt like it was in the room floating in front of me on one side.

Next up, Monk's Just you, Just me from Monk! Great small combo stuff, utterly convincing in that heavily panned instrumental stereo way that both the Miles album and this album share. I could have reached out and touched those horns. Monk was honking and snorting away as he played and it was a very personal and unique part of the music - present and adding life, but not detracting because that doesn't bother me.

Bill Evans's Waltz for Debbie and the Evans/Bennett album book-ended the jazz listening session. The Waltz for Debbie music could easily have been embellished by having Tony Bennett sing along with it, but there was a span of 14 years between albums, with Waltz for Debbie recorded in 1961 and Bennett/Evans recorded in 1975. I do get the feeling that Tony wanted to go back and sing on that session though and that the Evans/Bennett album used Waltz for Debbie as its inspiration.

This is particularly noticeable on My Foolish Heart, Some Other Time, and Waltz for Debbie, which grace both albums and are particularly well performed in both cases.

Waltz for Debbie is a "you are there" recording, again in that heavily panned small combo style. Yeah, it's 52 years old and recorded onto tape, and reproduced on tubes, but so what?

It's an interesting paradox that this type of album sounds good on any good system and can sound great on a system that plays to this type of music's strength. I guess this is true of most of the combo jazz listed here. I'll have to play some Basie to balance big band against small combo.

Tony Bennett is singing to me personally, right between my speakers. It's very 3D. I love that aspect of this system and this preamp really reinforces it without making it seem artificial, contrived, or super-natural.
Flipping back and forth between the vinyl on the Fantasy label and the CD, I find the reverb on Tony's voice more noticeable on the CD than the vinyl. The piano is slightly more prominent. I suspect the CD has more compression.

Off to late era Count Basie "On the Road with Count Basie and Orchestra " on Pablo Digital red vinyl recorded in 1980. I saw this orchestra in the early 1980s, but between the recording of this album and the time I saw the band Basie had a stroke. But I can recall a band full of probably most of the same musicians.
No mud at all. Every instrument clear and the notes accompanying the vocalist on "Watch What Happens" are all clear and not overpowering.
I often have found this era of big band music overpowering, be it from Doc Severinson, Basie, Maynard Ferguson, or whoever. Rendering that cacaphony intelligible takes a resolving system.

The trick is to get a resolving system but not have it be a fatiguing system.

 

[audiodon]

I'd like to say this section is Rock, but it's more like pop and metal with some bluegrass thrown in.

First up.
Back to Alison Krauss's voice.
After listing Raising Sand comparisons in post #47, I went back and listened to a couple of things.
1. Ghost in this House from her solo album "Forget About It".
I only have this on CD because I haven't been able to find it on vinyl or pry the SACD away from AK'er Jaymanaa's dogs. Before listening to that track on this system, I had been unaware just how much reverb is used on her voice. I do know that on some systems her voice can be a bit much in the nasal and reedy department, as much as I enjoy it, but it was fun to listen to this "different" track on this system.

To think that I'm using Spendor SP1/5 minimonitors and my old half restored Fisher 30A EL-84 tube monoblocs.

At this point I changed my system to a tube amp I've repaired for AK'er Dmitry. It's an Assemblage ST-300-B power amplifier. Zero feedback, 8 watts/channel. Slightly different presentation. It is somewhat more revealing of low-level details while not blowing them out of proportion, plus it has the extra bonus of some added high-frequency something. I wouldn't call it air, but perhaps more high-frequency extension. I think the Fishers are more narrowband monoblocs, probably rolling off between 30-40k, while the 300-B is not rolling off.

So, I put on two of my fancy titles featuring, as The Audiophile's Wife calls her, The Alison Krauss. I have a Mofi Original Master Recording vinyl version and an SACD version of "Alison Krauss + Union Station Live".
I used two tracks:
1. Ghost in This House
2. The Boy Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn featuring Dan Tymanski (spelling?) on vocals. Yes, he of "I Am a Man of Constant Sorrow" from the "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" soundtrack.

All I could find was somewhat of a different presentation through two different formats in two different playback chains. I have to give the nod to the SACD here for overall dynamics, presence, room ambiance and instrument positioning though, but not by much. Probably just shows the limits of my turntable.

I'm really developing an appreciation for when things come together in a system.
More later.

 

[thedelihaus]

Great write-up, Don. I look forward to hearing this in your system- I already felt your system was exceptional before this addition.

 

[audiodon]

In the "You Are There" department, I'd like to return to classical music for this post.

I've been attending a few Boston Symphony Orchestra concerts a year at Symphony Hall for half a decade now, though I don't consider myself a big classical listener.

I started going in 2008 and heard Saint Saens 3rd "Organ" symphony. I wanted to compare it to the Soundmirror mastered SACD I had of Charles Munch conducting the BSO in the same piece. I heard it again recently with a prominent AK'er to have him live that experience.

While acoustic memory is pliable, I seem to be able to remember enough cues about certain acoustic phenomena to be able to trigger evocative reactions, similar to somehow knowing the next line when prompted by watching a play or movie I know well. I might not be able to cite the script line by line, but I know what's happening next and certain highlights are foreseeable and can be cited, even if just as playback in my mind. That happens to me with sonic cues also, perhaps because of how my live sound experience has focused my critical listening. Perhaps you've experienced this also. This is the best way I can think of to explain this very subjective but very real experience.

I wanted to hear a live version of a symphony that I knew well from having a good 3-channel SACD from the original master tape such as the Saint Saens Organ symphony. I thought I could glimpse more into what I heard on the SACD after hearing it live in the same room and use that to elevate my system's voicing to closer to what that symphony sounds like in the room I'd heard it in. The first time I did it was almost 50 years later, and yes, I heard the symphony in a room with an audience and an entirely different set of players and a different conductor, but the hall sounds don't change except for the absorption provided by the audience members. They are scrupulous about not changing the sonic character of Symphony Hall.

Moving that forward to another night and another symphony, last Saturday night I heard Mahler's 3rd symphony live at the hall. I have the 1962 Leinsdorf recording from the same hall and I have played it twice since the concert to evaluate the preamp.
I can now hear how the room as an instrument affects this performance. As an interesting aside, the Boy's Choir director on both the recording and at Saturday's performance 51 years later is John Oliver. Now there's continuance for you.

In the past I'd thought this RCA BMG recording, marketed as HP (High Performance) because the master tape was bit-encoded to 96/24 in 1999 and then carefully mastered and dithered down to CD at 44.1/16 bit for final mastering, was a bit dark. But hearing it on this system brings the room alive to me again and echoes my in-room experience of hearing those big brass horns and woodwinds and the depth of the string sections in this symphony. The choir voices were also equally present and even the most delicate harp strings and triangle strikes are rendered appropriately. It makes me realize that, in this context, the recording is accurate and it is the room itself that is a bit dark. It also saturates a bit with the loudest crescendos. That's something I thought my system was interjecting but it's in the performance.

This recording also contains Mahler's 1st symphony, which I heard last year. Again, same "you are there" experience. This system is getting spooky good and I have to credit the preamp.

All I can say is that this setup continues to impress me with the depth and naturalness of presentation on recordings which are made under the most ideal of circumstances available at the time of the recording.

This "I have been there and I have heard that" aspect of these recordings gives me additional depth of understanding on how to balance and voice this system.

 

[audiodon]

Jennifer Warnes "The Well" has a track with very prominent bass titled, "invitation to the blues". This track sounds to me like a Fender fretless Precision bass played into an Ampeg SVT bass head with speakers and also to a line-out box. Of course I could be wrong about that, but that's what it seems like to me. The bass is quite prominent on this track and, prior to putting in the Vcap CuTFs, showed off the plumminess of the bass in this preamp in a way that makes you want to roll off the lows.
Now, post Vcaps, this track has controlled deep extended bass that never loses its grip or articulation and it aids the song rather than shifting the focus from the story within the vocals of the song.

On the intro track of Joni Mitchell's "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter", the way forward bass of Jaco Pastorius introduced two minutes in is startling in it's transient strike, depth and I feel like I can see the string wobbling back and forth after the pluck.

I have a copy of Metallica's "Master of Puppets" on 45 RPM vinyl. I played "Welcome Home Sanitarium" and it had all of the reckless speed and rage that the band could muster in that 1986 performance before the tragic loss of original bassist Cliff Burton.

While still in the hair band department, I put on a 1983 issued 45 RPM disc of "Bringin' On the Heartbreak" by Def Leppard. This disc has three tracks from the "Pyromania" album.

On a 1989 vinyl version of Roy Orbison's recording, "Mystery Girl", the sweet studio balance provides goodness and the spirit of an inspired studio session. This session led to that video recording of a concert with multiple stars that played endlessly on PBS fundraisers for close to a decade.

Peter Gabriel's "New Blood" is available on two 180G vinyl discs and features no electric guitar, electric bass or trap drums. It's about Peter Gabriel's post-Genesis songs arranged for an acoustic classical ensemble. Well recorded, this set of disks reveals a wonderful mix of close-miked instruments and ambient room sounds on side 1 track 3, "San Jacinto". Peter is kind of channeling Obi-Wan Kenobi looks-wise, but his voice is in stellar form.

Frank Ocean's "Orange" is clearly a young man's journey in the post 2010 world he lives in. To me it channels PM Dawn's 1990s entries of blue-eyed soul and hip-hop mixes. On CD, this disc mixes random recordings in homes and cars with studio recorded tracks. The transitions are obvious without being jarring and the obvious vocal chops of this rising star are in evidence.

Dream Theater has been a consistent prog rock entry for a couple of decades. I used the 180G vinyl's disc 1 track 2 "Forsaken" from the album Systematic Chaos as an entry. The kick drum is tight and distinct and there's no mush in the lows between the toms, the kick or the bass on this track.
There's some cymbal panning at the beginning of the track that's very useful because you can "watch" the high frequencies travel from one side to the other.

Also from the Dream Theater CD "a dramatic turn of events", I used track 4 "this is the life". Heavily processed, this track is still great fun with a big chorused 12 string guitar and slamming full-on rock band that knows its business and they're playing for all they're worth.
Vocals are surprisingly delicate, bass is taut and extended, piano is lush though compressed, and the quiet sections are as splendiferous as the all-out bang-bang crescendos.

This setup makes it cool to listen to the cheesiest stuff.
I put on a 45 with a big hole of Tennessee Ernie Ford's "16 Tons" for my daughter. She was dancing - DANCING - at age 11 to this track I wouldn't have been caught dead listening to at her age. How fun is that?

 

[nailer]

Sounds like you've found a RC tube preamp keeper. I’ve enjoyed reading your impressions of her.

BTW, Tennessee Ernie Ford's "16 Tons" is not cheesy. :thmbsp:

 

[audiodon]

Yeah, all right.
So it was the Def Leppard and Dream Theater that supplied the cheese.

There's a part of me that wants to try the different line inputs one more time to see if they use different tubes. Then I can additionally salt to taste.

I still plan to convert the two 12BH7s to 6CG7s, but that will have to wait for at least a couple of weeks.

 

[audiodon]

All line inputs are the same.
6CG7s to replace 12BH7s in the 12AU7 sockets, but not for two weeks.

 

[audiodon]

I never did the 6CG7 conversion. I don't feel the need.
This is now in the downstairs reference system driving my Spendor A9s with those Fisher 30A monoblocs.
I'd painted the room and moved out the reference system to do it. I just got it all back up and running within the last six weeks.
Damned fine combination, but still subject to change.

 

[audiodon]

I changed the 12BH7s to RCA triple-mica 5881s labeled HP.
Bumped this up to the front. Going to change direction away from separates and I wanted to review this and think it over.
It took me an hour just to find what forum it was in after the website reorg.
I requested the mods to move it because it was in the new gear value section, not the new gear performance section, where it now is.

 

[rcspkramp]

This is the kind of thread that makes me love AK. Thanks Don for the journey.

 

[WntrMute2]

It has been a year since your last post. Care to share where you are currently? I just purchased a used SLP-98 and am trying to learn a bit more about it.