Pro-Ject Carbon Debut Esprit SB vs U-Turn Orbit Special

A novice with turntables may soon find out that $500 doesn't go very far and he is seriously underfunded for this hobby. There are minimum mechanical skills to maintain and operate a turntable, far from pushing the start button. The Sony PS-X6 is a high end table compared to the Orbit and Project, if refurbished than it was operator error. Unless you are blessed with mechanical skills and have sufficent money I'd recommend you get a CD/DVD player instead of a turntable.
 
Speaking of the X6, what exactly is wrong with it? Unless you paid someone [who apparently didn't know what they were doing] to do the work for you, I'm having trouble seeing where hundreds of dollars would go into fixing it. Especially since that table costs ~$200 on the used market.
 
Speaking of the X6, what exactly is wrong with it?

I don't know if I can explain it right, but I'll try.

I wasn't around to see it, but my wife apparently pushed on the carbon brush and stopped the motor, which might have messed something up. I'm not sure if that's what did it, because it actually worked for a few days after that, but something was just off about it. And then it just stopped turning completely. Now this is where I should probably take a lot of blame. When it stopped turning, I tried to give it a little push and forced it, because it felt like it was trying to turn. When I did that, I might have broke something with the auto arm mechanism.

So I took it to a local repair shop and the guy replaced some capacitors, so now the table turns again, but he said that the auto mechanism had a piece of plastic that was broken and he can't fix it. He said it worked fine in manual mode, but when I took it home, that wasn't really the case. Even in manual mode, it still tries to move the arm itself, and it drops it about a quarter of the way up the record. The only way I can play a record is to let it move the needle to the wrong spot and then pick it up and manually drop it myself. It's really annoying. I could probably take it back to the shop and spend another ~$150 and he could fix the manual mode. But I'm just sort of done. I have a thing with electronics where if something is broken, even if it's still usable, it just bugs me. I've got the X6 listed on Craigslist and I'm going to try to get what I can out of it. Maybe someone with skills in this area will want to take it off my hands. While I have it listed, I might try to find another shop to get a 2nd opinion, but there aren't really a lot of options in New Orleans.
 
A novice with turntables may soon find out that $500 doesn't go very far and he is seriously underfunded for this hobby.

You say they "may find out". I agree with you here. But I can just as accurately respond with, "they may not find out." In which case, we are both right and all of our basses are covered. So we start right back where we began.

There is no shame one way or the other.

Everyone has to start somewhere. Perhaps the O.P. can make a decision (any decision), take the plunge, and then decide for himself what is adequate and what isn't.

But arguably, in a perfect world, I can suggest that everyone have $(choose your budget) for a turntable that is worthy of more listeners, then find ways to ramp up the inevitable desires for spending after that.
 
Don't matter if brand new or vintage a turntable is a fragile instrument that needs to be handled and operated with great care, the slightest move and you can wipe out a costly cartridge stylus without batting an eye. Compared to a novice $500 in the hands of someone that knows a good bit about turntables that amount of money can go a very long way especially with preowned vintage tables. Before anyone gets in too deep I'd suggest they purchase a used $40-50 table off of Craigslist to practice with to see if they are cut out for the challenge of playing records. That's about what I payed, $50, for a Sony PS-X5 with a very nice cartridge, might of been a Stanton 681, table/cartridge in mint cosmetic condition, operating rod disconnected, did minor disassembly and reattached rod table worked perfect and sounded excellent, later resold to AK member.
 
FWIW, I think it's hard to evaluate stuff in the abstract, not to mention the notion of evaluating how something sounds based on published -- or even measured -- specifications (i.e., quantitative performance).

So -- I don't know if the alleged speed issue with the U-turn is purported to be one of accuracy (the absolute value of the rotational velocity, how close to 33-1/3 rpm it is) or of precision (how much it varies from the mean value of its rotational velocity over time). If the former, unless one has perfect pitch or if it's way off, it may be a total non-issue for any given individual. The latter may be a big deal or a small one, depending on the magnitude of the variability and the tolerance of the listener.

The U-turn gets good press for a very basic (almost crude) bare-bones entry-level turntable. I'd suggest that the OP may want to audition one. Play a piano sustain & listen for variation in the tone (slow variation = "wow", quick variation = "flutter"). If it's either unheard or heard but not disturbing, the tt is probably gonna be fine for him (or her). As to absolute accuracy (pitch accuracy), only the user can judge if it's acceptable to him or her. Let's say it's exactly and consistently 0.5% slow -- the pitch will be off (flat) and the tempo will be slightly slow... but whether either matters to any given individual is going to depend mostly on the individual.

Bottom line -- try before you buy, if at all possible. If not, buy, try and if it's OK for you (the OP, that is), it's OK. If not, return or resell it.

All of the above are just my thoughts and opinions, offered 'as-is' and FWIW.
 
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I've thought about it a bit and I'm very tempted by the Technics SL-401 that horiatis76 has listed. Anybody have any thoughts on that one? I actually like that it's not fully automatic since that is what broke on my current table. Is the Kenwood at the same price a better option? Or the Dual 1245?
 
These two are both the current flavor of the month entry TTs. I'm sure both will perform very well for someone who just wants something new, and something that works out the box with minimal hassle.

That said, I personally wouldn't choose either of these over a decent refurbished vintage. They are very far behind a good vintage TT in 2 major areas, ease of use and build quality. Especially when it comes to swapping carts, and dialing in the new cart. Many people damage the phono wires trying to swap carts on these fixed head shells. The counter weight can't be set accurately quickly because they lack hash marks for adjustment. The anti skate usually requires changing a weight on a string. I don't believe there's vta adjustment on either of these either.
 
I've thought about it a bit and I'm very tempted by the Technics SL-401 that horiatis76 has listed. Anybody have any thoughts on that one? I actually like that it's not fully automatic since that is what broke on my current table. Is the Kenwood at the same price a better option? Or the Dual 1245?

What do you mean by "not fully automatic"? I am not familiar with the 1401 but the turntable indicates automatic. If I were to recommend a used turntable, I would suggest manual belt drive (just like the project and orbit you are considering). May not perform as well as other vintage units but less to go wrong. Pioneer pl 12 is one I have read that is reliable and sounds good. Then later after you have gotten your feet wet with the vinyl experience and you feel you want to upgrade, you should have no problem selling the Pioneer at a minimal loss (or even a gain if bought cheap).
 
If your price point is >$500, then the Rega Planar 1 is a $475 buy off Amazon. I own an older version and am pretty happy with it. Like the Pro-ject and the Orbit, it's a simple, manual turntable. Rega turntables are in general well regarded, and easy to set up and use. At least so far, I'm finding that playing records does not require an advanced degree, robotic arms and a purpose-built clean room. I think learning about turntables and records is fun (or should be),no matter the level at which you engage.

And while a lot of folks scoff at it, I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the Audio-Technica AT-LP120.

s.
 
I was wondering what people think about the better choice among these two tables. I've seen threads that compare the lower end models, but not these two. They have the same cartridge and seem very highly regarded. I'm having trouble deciding. The Pro-Ject is a little more expensive, but not much.

Don't let the fuddy duddies dissuade you. Get the orbit. If U-turn were an established retail brand the tables would cost a lot more, AND they are assembled here in the USA. So what you pay for them is a bargain, especially if you add in the customer service. The father of one of the U-Turn owners posted here when they first debut and the poor guy was chased off just because he was proud of what they'd done and defended the specs - because of course there was the usual Wow and flutter war. It was disrespectful and I'll never forget that. But if you get something built anywhere NEAR China you would be scolded to the grave for buying garbage. You can't win here. Do a proper google site search of this forum for Pro-ject and you will find ten years and more of complaints of their budget tables and the cheap Regas. Some will deny it, but the search results speak for themselves.

As someone who has rehabbed several dozen vintage tables, I say just get the Orbit and get the tunes flowin'. There'll always be another table to buy when you're ready to move on.
 
My favorite lower-end turntable for sound is the Pro-Ject Essential II ($299). I really dislike the tonal balance of the 2M line of cartridges, and would never consider buying a model that includes one as the stock cartridge. The OM5E sounds much better to my ears, and the Stylus 20 makes an easy and remarkable upgrade should a person wish to try it. If I were buying a U-Turn, I would choose their $329 package with the standard plinth, acrylic platter, cue lever, and OM5E cartridge. I haven't heard or even seen a U-Turn, but this is the model I'd take a chance on, though I have to say that I'm not wild about the idea of a factory pre-set anti-skate force that is not user adjustable (though the new Rega Planar 1 and Planar 2 do the same thing). For lots of fun features (such as 78 rpm, pitch control, reverse play, USB output, built-in phono stage, and more), I would choose the afore-mentioned AT LP120 USB. It doesn't sound quite as good as the Pro-Ject Essential II, but I could see keeping it around as a second table for its unique features even if I later upgraded to a better main turntable.

https://www.whathifi.com/pro-ject/essential-ii/review
https://www.whathifi.com/audio-technica/lp120usb/review
 
Just on the speed accuracy alone, I would reject the U-Turn as a choice. It is more than 3 times worse than a fairly good table.

Name a <$500 table that isn't. I assume by "fairly good table" you're talking vintage. Not everyone wants the pain in the arse of dealing with vintage tables, which either need or will need attention and service.
 
Doesn't the built-in speed box of the Esprit SB help with the accuracy?

It should do as indicated in my previous post. Not sure if the built in SB in the Esprit is the same quality as the stand alone Speed Box S that I recently bought for my Pro-ject 2Xperience Classic? If so you will find many positive reports by happy SB owners if you search the archives. Apparently improvements to sound quality are greater in less expensive tables like the Debut and become less apparent, but still noticeable, with models further up the ladder where speed is more accurate.
 
As a musician, the idea of a turntable spinning at the wrong pitch rubs be the wrong way. Yet, I have to admit that unless I have a reference pitch that I'm matching it to, a slight difference in pitch/speed doesn't catch my attention. The idea still bothers me, but the idea that close enough is close enough on 33.3 rpms was echoed by many here in an old thread I started:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/how-cool-are-you-with-no-speed-adjustment.743097/

Wow and flutter on the other hand, is a tangible, audible nuisance that can destroy most listening experiences for me. I'm not able to tell you what the audible threshold for w/f is, but finding a product with the w/f spec as low as possible cannot be a bad thing.
 
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