Promised review of 4 dacs

Ya ... that's a new one on me too. I do know that ASIO was handy for replacing the original generic microsoft mixer/driver, but isn't really required with their newer OSes that use WASAPI. Not sure if a dedicated ASIO driver is an improvement over that.

I do know from personal experience and a bit of research that ASIO4ALL is very aggressive and will attempt to take over any sound hardware you have unless you uninstall it with extreme prejudice. My UCA202 DAC did a decent enough job using the generic XP drivers, but sounded like sh!t when I tried to use Behringer's dedicated ASIO2 drivers. Come to find out, I had an old install of ASIO4ALL that was getting in the way. Uninstalled that with extreme prejudice and all was well. More power to those who use ASIO4ALL if it does the job for their particular setup - I wasn't so lucky, and it gave me all sorts of grief till I figured out what the problem was and drove a digital stake thru it's black heart. For anyone installing new hardware with dedicated drivers, I seriously suggest you uninstall ASIO4ALL first.

Ack ack ... (sorry, hairball) ... ACKtually ... that was one of the hmmmmm moments when deciding on the Maverick D1 - it does NOT have a dedicated ASIO driver available, and I'm still running XP. That leaves me using the old KMixer, which is hit or miss on quality. My options if that gives me problems:

- whine incessantly to their tech support about getting an ASIO driver
- try using the Behringer ASIO driver already installed.
- try using ASIO4ALL
- and eventually upgrade to Windows 7 and turn on WASAPI.



* Makes me wonder if that was the problem with my Xonar internal card? Same thing there - all kinds of weirdness and artifacts, enough so that I took it out and tossed it.

Not sure what media-player you use with your computer, but if you're still looking for another option to bypass the K-mixer, check out Virtual Audio Cable. I've been having very-good luck with it. It's plug-and-play will VLC Media-Player, but it can supposedly work with other players with some adjustments. Also, they seem to take a different approach than WASAPI or ASIO. I don't really understand how they do it, but it works.

That's interesting to hear that about ASIO4all. Perhaps that's why I was having a problem getting WASAPI to work properly on Foobar. I had already tried ASIO/ASIO4all, and maybe that was getting in the way somehow. Worth looking into, although I wouldn't mind using the VAC plug-in with Foobar (I've been so-happy with the sound on VLC that it's got me feeling lazy about trying anything else.
 
Ya ... that's a new one on me too. I do know that ASIO was handy for replacing the original generic microsoft mixer/driver, but isn't really required with their newer OSes that use WASAPI. Not sure if a dedicated ASIO driver is an improvement over that.

I do know from personal experience and a bit of research that ASIO4ALL is very aggressive and will attempt to take over any sound hardware you have unless you uninstall it with extreme prejudice. My UCA202 DAC did a decent enough job using the generic XP drivers, but sounded like sh!t when I tried to use Behringer's dedicated ASIO2 drivers. Come to find out, I had an old install of ASIO4ALL that was getting in the way. Uninstalled that with extreme prejudice and all was well. More power to those who use ASIO4ALL if it does the job for their particular setup - I wasn't so lucky, and it gave me all sorts of grief till I figured out what the problem was and drove a digital stake thru it's black heart. For anyone installing new hardware with dedicated drivers, I seriously suggest you uninstall ASIO4ALL first.

Ack ack ... (sorry, hairball) ... ACKtually ... that was one of the hmmmmm moments when deciding on the Maverick D1 - it does NOT have a dedicated ASIO driver available, and I'm still running XP. That leaves me using the old KMixer, which is hit or miss on quality. My options if that gives me problems:

- whine incessantly to their tech support about getting an ASIO driver
- try using the Behringer ASIO driver already installed.
- try using ASIO4ALL
- and eventually upgrade to Windows 7 and turn on WASAPI.



* Makes me wonder if that was the problem with my Xonar internal card? Same thing there - all kinds of weirdness and artifacts, enough so that I took it out and tossed it.

One other option: Linux. I'm not techie by any stretch of the imagination. However, a user - friendly distribution like Ubuntu (or a variant called Lubuntu) might be just the ticket. It's relatively easy to set up and supports but perfect playback of hi res digital music if you select the right music playback software, and there are a number of playback packages to choose from.
 
Not sure what media-player you use with your computer, but if you're still looking for another option to bypass the K-mixer, check out Virtual Audio Cable. I've been having very-good luck with it. It's plug-and-play will VLC Media-Player, but it can supposedly work with other players with some adjustments. Also, they seem to take a different approach than WASAPI or ASIO. I don't really understand how they do it, but it works.

Been reading up on that ... it's magic?

It looks like what it does is act as a software switch to stream the output from one software package to the input of another. Clever. Little or no added latency as the signal transfer is all digital and there's no additional hardware involved in the "cables" themselves. In my case, I use jRiver Media Center, so <theoretically> I'd build one paired VAC, hook that to the DAC output to the computer, then build another paired VAC, hook that to jRiver's input in OPTIONS, then use the VAC repeater to "clone" one cable to the other. Yikes! I'm thinking I might have to sacrifice a goat or two to make that work?

One other option: Linux. I'm not techie by any stretch of the imagination. However, a user - friendly distribution like Ubuntu (or a variant called Lubuntu) might be just the ticket. It's relatively easy to set up and supports but perfect playback of hi res digital music if you select the right music playback software, and there are a number of playback packages to choose from.

Way better than butt perfect. Talk about adding an "essense" to the music ... now, if it was Jessica Alba's butt being emulated, no worries ... I hear her farts smell like roses ...

(OK, so I'm the typo police today - so sue me!) :D

I expect it'd be a lot easier to just bite the bullet and upgrade my XP-MCE to W7, but trying Linux has crossed my mind. Problem being, there's little or nothing as to how well it supports jRiver Media Center, and I'm sold on that as my library/playback system. I find a but ... er ... butt ... er ... bit here and there crowing about success integrating the software - WINE on Ubuntu, Codeweaver, etc. - but these references either end up as dead threads or worse. Never a good sign.

Thanx for the thought though ... I'm taking copious notes AND hoping I never have to use them.

:lurk:
 
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Way better than butt perfect. Talk about adding an "essense" to the music ... now, if it was Jessica Alba's butt being emulated, no worries ... I hear her farts smell like roses ...

(OK, so I'm the typo police today - so sue me!) :D

I expect it'd be a lot easier to just bite the bullet and upgrade my XP-MCE to W7, but trying Linux has crossed my mind. Problem being, there's little or nothing as to how well it supports jRiver Media Center, and I'm sold on that as my library/playback system. I find a but ... er ... butt ... er ... bit here and there crowing about success integrating the software - WINE on Ubuntu, Codeweaver, etc. - but these references either end up as dead threads or worse. Never a good sign.

Thanx for the thought though ... I'm taking copious notes AND hoping I never have to use them.

:lurk:

Can't believe I typed "but perfect.". :nono: :D

I would not look for J River support on Linux. I suppose one could try to kluge something together with Wine, but that IMHO would defeat the purpose of trying Linux. Linux adds the benefit of ease of set up and playback without all of Windows processing overhead. It also gives you a reliable processing backbone, great sound and a decent variety of playback software. No, you're not likely to find software that's as pretty and refined a J River. But you can't beat the price or the performance.
 
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Been reading up on that ... it's magic?

It looks like what it does is act as a software switch to stream the output from one software package to the input of another. Clever. Little or no added latency as the signal transfer is all digital and there's no additional hardware involved in the "cables" themselves. In my case, I use jRiver Media Center, so <theoretically> I'd build one paired VAC, hook that to the DAC output to the computer, then build another paired VAC, hook that to jRiver's input in OPTIONS, then use the VAC repeater to "clone" one cable to the other. Yikes! I'm thinking I might have to sacrifice a goat or two to make that work?

:lurk:

I don't know how it's gonna' work for everybody, but I do suspect it might work well for those having problems getting bite-perfect playback from a slow, entry-level PC/laptop (especially laptops). It just seemed to work right away without having to tweak over and over like I had to with WASAPI and ASIO. Once it was working, you could HEAR it was working... Plus, I get that little bit of latency when I pause it/un-pause it. When I compared VLC (with the V.A.C. plug-in installed) with Windows (with NO plug-in bypassing the K-mixer) using a high-quality rip of "The Expendables" on blu-ray (which has great-sounding action scenes), the VLC/V.A.C. combo sounded noticably-clearer and more-dynamic. In that scene where Stallone and Jet Li are in the hot-rodded pickup getting chased, the roar of the engines sounds more-realistic with better extension, separation, and dynamics, like a veil was lifted... A big one.... I wish VLC didn't work so-independently (It uses a lot more RAM than Foobar), but it sure sounds good with that plug-in.

Oh, darn... Did I make a typo?
 
That Maverick looks interesting ... I'm currently using a Behringer UCA202 that's does a respectable job of pulling digital out of the computer and feeding it to my old school quad, but ALSO has analog in so I can do vinyl rips easy as pie. Looks like the Maverick would be a step up from that and still have the convenience? Have you tried doing vinyl rips with it?


D1 vs D2

dac_comparison.gif


One feature I like on the D1 is it uses socketed op amps so you can roll em if ya got em ... I see the D2 upgrades to Burr-Brown components - slap a couple of those in the D1 and see what happens ... hopefully not pOOf! <G> Probably best to check first for any bogus pin assignments. I'm fairly certain they've pretty much standardized by now.

PS ... is the Maverick pricing also a closeout deal seeing as how they're rolling out the D2? Nice feature list, but in my case, I'm thinking I'd miss the analog in, which seems to have disappeared in the New! Improved! model.

Here's my two cents on the Maverick D1 and D2 (I have had both, and am currently listening to the D2).
First, the D1: this was a very nice improvement over the stock MacBook Pro sound card. Very, very nice improvement- in fact, it made me realize how badly I needed an external DAC. However, the real potential of the D1 was unleashed when I started rolling the op-amps. There are quite a few options out there, and the op-amps are typically extremely affordable (if not free if you get a sample from distributor). Upgrading the two opamps turned the D1 into something even better- for those who have a D1, I DEFINITELY recommend looking into this. It took the DAC to a whole other level.

Now, I had the D1 for some time, and decided to upgrade to the D2. The D2, as you mentioned, has several advantages over the D1, as long as you are willing to give up the headphone output (I never use headphones) and the volume control (which I also never used anyways).

Here's what stood out to me as the major advantages of the D2 over the D1:
-Burr-Brown op-amp's (3 in the new one. D1 had 2, and IMO they left a lot to be desired, hence the op-amp rolling).
-A better DAC chip. New DAC has >117db S/N ratio vs. the old DAC w/ >96db S/N ratio...so lower noise, for one thing.
-A Tenor 7022L chip for bit-perfect output via USB (up to 24bit/96Khz)- this is huge, as the D1 did not have bit perfect output via USB, IIRC.
-Better components: Elna, WIMA, and Rubycon capacitors, etc.
-Better build quality: For example, the case of the D1 was always tricky to slide off for op-amp and tube rolling. the D2's case (same sheet-metal design) seems to fit better and comes off/goes back on with ease. The knob on the D2 is nicer. Only complaint would be the piercingly-bright blue LED lights! I feel like the terminator is staring at me if I have the lights off. Overall build quality of both units was great though, especially for the price.

My impressions of the D2:
For me, I definitely notice an improvement in the D2 vs. the D1. I haven't even begun to explore different op-amps yet either. I'm terrible at describing HOW things sound sometimes; but to me, the D2 sounds more detailed, but in a good way- not sterile by any means. Cleaner. The high and low notes extend effortlessly, aren't harsh, and I feel like I'm really getting a sense of how the music was intended to be heard (or how it was recorded). Imaging was good on the D1- it's even better on the D2, with better localization of instruments, a better presentation of a '3D' soundstage, etc. (Keep in mind, as well, that this is simply using the SS output- I'm not currently using the tube buffer). Finally, I notice more of a difference in the tube vs. SS output in the D2- this is good. In the D1, the tube vs. SS output was often very similar. In the D2, I can roll in a different tube, and really notice that particular tube's impact on the music. This wasn't quite as easy in the D1.

As for tube rolling in these DAC's- I think I've rolled quite a few tubes in the D1 and D2, including: Western Electric JW 2C51, Western Electric 396A, Tung Sol 2C51, the stock GE(? I thinkmilitary tube, Bendix JAN-CEA 2C51). If you would like my opinions on tube rolling in these DAC's, I'd be more than happy to do that in another post.




Long story short: the D1 was a good starter DAC for me, especially fun to roll op-amps in. However, my components got better, and the D2 was DEFINITELY worth the upgrade. I don't even feel the urge to change the op-amps in the D2- so that should say something in itself. The difference in the D2 is wonderful, and worth it, so long as you don't need a headphone amp- and given that most of us have receivers- you could just use the headphone jack on your receiver anyways. A+ for the Maverick D2. :thmbsp:.





Here is some background on my current setup, if anyone is curious:
MacBook Pro, 2.4 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8 GB RAM. Running audio out via optical using only lossless audio files, through iTunes with BitPerfect running in the background to control the bit rate automatically and put the system in memory hog mode, etc. Current receiver is a fully restored Fisher 500-b, paired with Allison Four speakers. As with most people on here, the setup changes every so often, but you get the idea.

EDIT: Added some pictures of the D2 if anyone is interested:
 

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What opamps did you try in D1 and what is your recommendation? Is this socketed or do you have to solder (sorry don't feel like taking apart to look).

I have GE 5670 5 white star tube.

Any thoughts on comparison of D2 to Grant Fidelity DAC 11?
 
The op-amps are socketed in both D1 and D2 and are very easy to remove/replace. Trust me, I didn't feel like soldering something that tiny either.

It has been a while since I played with the D1, so I'm trying to jog my memory here. After rolling a bunch, I decided I liked the following best in the D1:

#1 -Two LME49720HA ('metal can' type in HP and DAC spots)- I recall liking these the best. Much cleaner, more clarity, etc., while still balanced.

-After I decided on the 'metal cans' though, I decided to try two AD823AN (in HP and DAC spots). I honestly can't recall why, but after a while I think I took these out and put the metal cans back in. Perhaps I thought they didn't sound as sonically balanced in this DAC as the above mentioned op amps? Can't quite remember. Either way, both of these two op amps were better, IMO, than the ones I tried below (which were still nice vs. stock):

I've also tried:
-LME49720NA x2 (in both headphone and DAC spots, IIRC). Good- the 'metal cans' beat them though. Or maybe it was just in my head. Nah, the metal cans were better. :D
-LM4562NA with LT1364 (improvement over stock, but the above choices were better for me)

YMMV!
 
Gah! I just took out all those op amps and now I 'misplaced' one of the AD823AN. Damn tiny little buggers! :)
 
So you're saying I got the wrong one ... good to know. <G>

As stated, I did a bit of soul searching and a couple coin tosses to decide between the D1 and D2. For me, the convenience of having the one box do all I needed for I/O was the decider. I did order it with the tube and op amp upgrades installed (GE 5* and OPA627x2) ... but now I wonder if I'll wonder how much of an improvement they are over the stock ... and of course how much better it could be with the D2 ... especially when you consider there's not that much difference in price between the D2 and the upgraded D1 ... :scratch2: ...

Hi, my name is sKiZo, and I'm anal retentive. :D
Too late to worry about it now, so I won't.

I do plan to let it break in first before getting into tube rolling. Already got a couple to play with based on what I've seen on the www.

UPDATE >>

Based on tracking information, projected flight path and routing, the average airspeed of a 727-200, and current weather conditions ... my D1 should be about here ...

maverick-map.jpg


What can I say ... slow day, eh.

Definitely interested in your experimentation with the D1 ... op amps I've found that are supposed to work well are the LT1364CN8, LM4562NA, AD823, and the LME49720 ... as well as the OPA627. Each has their own unique characteristics. I'm taking notes as we speak ...
 
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Gah! I just took out all those op amps and now I 'misplaced' one of the AD823AN. Damn tiny little buggers! :)

Look on the bottom of your shoes ... that's usually where I find mine ... :cry:

Oh. A PS ... the D1 is supposed to be tested as bit perfect at 48/16. It'll be an interesting experiment to re-rip a few selections from my standard redbook to see if I can hear any difference. I'm leaning towards "not" as I run a fairly clean machine with decent power, and jRiver buffers the input anyway.
 
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Hahaha- Skizo, did you just order a D2, or was that a typo for the D1 you ordered?

I'd be interested to know what you think of the D1 with the upgraded OPA627's vs. stock. Haven't read much about those yet.

They definitely have their own characteristics. Some of it probably will boil down to personal taste, too. I forget what the AD823AN's sound like, for the most part. If you get around to it, it may be interesting to compare the AD823's to the OPA627's. Op-amp rolling is fun and pretty darn cheap- gotta love it.
 
LM4562NA and LME49720NA are the same OpAmp inside. national renamed the dual when they created the line with a single and a quad, to match the names.
The tin can version LME49720HA is better only when used to drive low impedance loads (headphones) because it runs cooler in that condition.

Those are my favorite OpAmps to roll...
 
Hahaha- Skizo, did you just order a D2, or was that a typo for the D1 you ordered?

I'd be interested to know what you think of the D1 with the upgraded OPA627's vs. stock. Haven't read much about those yet.

They definitely have their own characteristics. Some of it probably will boil down to personal taste, too. I forget what the AD823AN's sound like, for the most part. If you get around to it, it may be interesting to compare the AD823's to the OPA627's. Op-amp rolling is fun and pretty darn cheap- gotta love it.

Typo? What typo? Prove it!! <G>

Part of the problem with ordering the thing with the upgrades installed is that I'll never know how much of an improvement they are! I guess I could always give them a call and see what the stock amps 'n tube would set me back. Or not. I'll have to start an op amp collection while I'm at it.
 
LM4562NA and LME49720NA are the same OpAmp inside. national renamed the dual when they created the line with a single and a quad, to match the names.
The tin can version LME49720HA is better only when used to drive low impedance loads (headphones) because it runs cooler in that condition.

Those are my favorite OpAmps to roll...

If heat is an issue, there's always passive heat sinks. I'd cooled a few chips that way.

c_l8090c2_fin.jpg


Standard finned ones are cheap and can be cut down to whatever size you need. Peel and stick is nice too, and probably makes them easier to pull and set, not to mention harder to lose ...
 
I really think is not necessary if you drive your headphones with dedicated amps - diamond buffer or integrated amp like LM48820.
I have some LM4562 in the miniature SDIP case and they are still fairly cool to touch.
 
Basically boils down to playing it by ear. If you notice that it starts to develop strangeness after it's been running hard for a while, that might suggest a heat sink could be a nice addition. If not ... faggedabowdit!

My Maverick is now ... here ...

maverick-map2.jpg
 
Typo? What typo? Prove it!! <G>

Part of the problem with ordering the thing with the upgrades installed is that I'll never know how much of an improvement they are! I guess I could always give them a call and see what the stock amps 'n tube would set me back. Or not. I'll have to start an op amp collection while I'm at it.

We can swap opamps for a week if you want to. I have the feeling that I'd be getting a slight advantage in this temporary trade though :).

Burn that sucker in (if that's your style) and give it a whirl- and report back
 
The Maverick D1 came in the mail yesterday. Did the obligatory "pop the hood" and looked inside, using the excuse that it'd come halfway around the world and I needed to make sure nothing rattled loose.

Glad I got them to do the upgrade on the OPA627s ... those apparently needed special risers - something along the line of the Browndog adapters - to fit the Maverick's pin configuration. Good to know.

Simple cable swap with the UCA202, fired it up using the tube out, and found it to have tremendous resolution of low-level detail, great transparency, freedom from timbral grain and liquidity, a treble that is simultaneously smooth and resolving, and absolutely stunning dynamics.

Sniff ... snerk ... are my nose hairs showing? Remind me to cancel my subscription to Absolute Sound ... read too much of that crap and it's catching ... <G>

Or to put it another way ... wOw. Night and day, night and day. All of the above does apply and is readily apparent. Even after just a couple hours listening, I'm flat out impressed with what I'm hearing - and especially what I wasn't hearing before. Like a whole new system. I've got the gain set at three clicks south of max to match the output from my OPPO. And speaking of which - I'd put the sound quality of the D1 right up there with the OPPO 980H for anyone familiar with that particular SACD player.

Keep in mind, I don't have all that much experience with DACs ... but IMHO, this one's a keeper. I'll hold off on tube rolling for now, but that should be interesting, as both the TungSol 2C51 and Western Electric 396a that I've got to play with are supposed to be major improvements over the GE 5star I got in it right now.

Also, I haven't done any A/B comparison of the "normal" and tube output yet ... I'll save that till after break in.

PS ... on build, it looks tight and right. Heavy lil rascal for it's size too. One complaint I've seen is that the case is a real tight fit - that's true, but an easy fix. It catches on the sharp corners on the backplate and binds. I just took a couple swipes with a hand file to round those over and it slides on real nice now. Also, the power cable is an upgrade from what you'd usually see, but it IS on the short side. No worries here as it was just long enough to get where it had to go, but could be a problem for some.

Thanx AK ... I was sitting on the fence for a while. The listening chair is MUCH more comfortable, so off I go ... no regrets.

Got my TungSol 2C51 in the mail today. They invented the tube, so figured I'd give them a spin.

And what a long strange trip it's been.

tungsol-002.jpg


Gotta wonder where else it's been in the last 50 years ...
 
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Correction:

I was originally working under the assumption that the Maverick D1 was a full DAC/ADC, but apparently I misconstrapulated what Ryan told me. I was hoping it'd be a one box does all kinda thing that would also work for ripping vinyl to digital. Alas, 'tis not so. The Maverick D1 is strictly one way.

No biggie ... dug up the old Behringer UCA202, plugged that in again, and I'm back to rippin' ... it sits right next to the D1, so it's a simple matter of switching the cables. Never had any issues with the job the UCA202 does in that respect. It limits me to 48/16, but I rip at redbook anyway.

I AM using the D1 for listening to vinyls ...

(the devil made me do that ... see http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5769759&postcount=49 )

Plugged the turntable into a DJ PRE II, then into my dBX SNR, then into the D1 analog in for some of that toobie sweetness. Excellent! Gives me that bit of extra boost I was wanting too, and saves me the $$$ I would have more than likely eventually spent for a tube phono pre.
 
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