Pursuing great digital on the bleeding edge

[marantzfan]

I've been continuing to research the options for a DSD capable digital front end. I've been very impressed with what I have read about both HQPlayer and the Concero HD and both are on my short list. In fact, that combination is what keeps bringing me back to this thread.

The difference though, is I would like to do something like a Mac Mini running HQPlayer out to the DAC directly. I Understand that traditionally, HQPlayer required an NAA before the DAC but it seems as if the newer version of HQPlayer for Mac no longer requires this. Am I correct in assuming that the SOTM was used in this capacity with HQPlayer and that the newer version would no longer require it?

This stuff is still a little tricky to wrap your head around...

 

[for_p1]

Real time DSD conversion is not always good thing. Look at this http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html article. It demonstrates how conversion happens an what you will find at the output.

 

[Billfort]

HQplayer works just fine (any version) stand-alone without NAA; I used it on a big noisy PC and a laptop direct connected to the Concero for quite some time.

NAA was an upgrade - as was a linear power supply for the NAA/Concero - but HQplayer and the Concero doing DSD128 with all source material is the real key here IMO and a great place to start or even end. NAA has just been the icing on the cake so to speak.

 

[Billfort]

Real time DSD conversion is not always good thing. Look at this http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html article. It demonstrates how conversion happens an what you will find at the output.

Ahhh, measurements and Jriver, it must not work.

Miska at Signalyst would probably love to debate that article on a technical level but not me - my preference with this stuff and all audio for that matter these last dozen years or so is based on listening experience for the most part - it's just the part that matters to me - and I like conversion to DSD128, at least when it's HQplayer doing the conversion.

It's been easy enough to make that decision too - get a few decent DACs in house (and I've had some pretty decent PCM DACs here) and try it out for yourself, HQplayer is free for the first month. With Jriver, I think I'd be streaming PCM bit-perfect to the AudioNote and DSD straight-up to the Concero HD but with HQplayer and NAA, everything goes DSD128 to the Concero. No right or wrong or graphs to prove anything, just my preference for how I like my music.

 

[marantzfan]

HQplayer works just fine (any version) stand-alone without NAA; I used it on a big noisy PC and a laptop direct connected to the Concero for quite some time.

NAA was an upgrade - as was a linear power supply for the NAA/Concero - but HQplayer and the Concero doing DSD128 with all source material is the real key here IMO and a great place to start or even end. NAA has just been the icing on the cake so to speak.

Ok, so the upgrade comes in the fact that the NAA doesn't have the inherent noise of a PC so it serves as kind of a buffer. I think I get the concept now.

 

[enginedr]

I see the light. I just set up a Apple mac-mini using my I tunes lossless files & Channel D audio Pure Music - into a NuForce u192s USB to S/PIDF converter - to a DSPeaker Anti Mode 2.0 - I am blown away by the detail and texture of the digital presentation . Wow

 

[davidro]

Bill you had/have some flagship Sony SACDP.

What sonic superiority, if any, does your new DSD machine have over the Sony?

 

[Billfort]

HQplayer>DSD128 on the Concero HD dac is a lot better to me – particularly when playing PCM – and I do go back to the Sony pretty regularly to compare.

The Sony now seems a little dry, harsh, and has a flat, constricted soundscape by comparison – playing with the various filter options on the SCD-777ES helps sometimes but never completely eliminates this. The DSD128 set-up has better dynamic contrasts and has somehow transformed the soundstage on some recordings with more depth, image accuracy and the sense of real humans and instruments being played. HQplayer>DSD128 sounds more like the experience I get with a good analog LP than the surgical precision and sterility I sometimes hear with PCM, which ultimately sounds artificial to me. It could be that DSD128 is more ‘colored’ with PCM being more ‘accurate’ but I’m 100% OK with that – it just sounds more like real music to me.

This effect is by far the most evident when comparing CDs played straight-up from the Sony to the same CD ripped to wav and streamed to DSD128 via HQPlayer. CDs played on the Sony but using the AudioNote DAC are closer, and closer still when the wav rips are streamed to the AudioNote bit-perfect using HQplayer, the sotm NAA and the Concero in USB>SPDIF converter mode. Switching to the analog outs of the Concero and converting everything to DSD128 with HQplayer’s poly-sinc short/DSD7 filtering is pretty special though, and I find in this mode I’m sometimes listening to wav files instead of my vinyl copies – something I never thought I’d do.

SACD (DSD64) playback comparison with the Sony is much closer - the same advantages are there, just to a lesser extent. The background seems a little darker improving dynamic contrasts a touch, imaging seems a little more accurate and overall smoothness is improved. It is impossible for me to compare all my SACDs directly though, as the majority of them won’t play on the Sony anymore and it’s un-repairable (laser parts unavailable). I guess you could say this makes the DSD128 set-up infinitely better than the Sony for SACD/DSD.

 

[davidro]

Interesting. Thanks for the input. Frankly I wasn't all that thrilled with my Sony SACDP. The machine was a TOTL unit when it was released Down Under. Perhaps I might consider the DSD-DAC route in future.

 

[soundboy]

Meanwhile, Mobile Fidelity goes 4X DSD on its future SACD releases....

http://www.twice.com/news/audio/mobile-fidelity-wants-more-fidelity-discs/55259

 

[for_p1]

Meanwhile, Mobile Fidelity goes 4X DSD on its future SACD releases....

http://www.twice.com/news/audio/mobile-fidelity-wants-more-fidelity-discs/55259

They assume that original source is analog tape. Where would they get one? No one recorded final master on analog tape in the last 20 years.

Also I do not want no crappy SACD - give me that 4x DSD as downloadable file.

 

[Billfort]

I thought I would summarize what I’ve learned here before leaving it – next steps are probably expensive, subtle tweaking or equate to lateral moves that are just ‘different’; I’ve reached a comfortable place to stop and just focus on source material.

The big thing I’ve learned is that computer audio has the potential to outperform physical media and by using the right software outside the listening room and DSD>analog in a decent DAC brings digital to a place where this analog junkie is very happy with it.

I’ve now been through various computer configurations, network layouts, control point options, DACs, formats, conversion schemes, power-supplies, tweaks and wire and kind of have a hierarchy of importance in my head for all the above (which I mentioned here). In a nutshell – it seems to mostly be about source quality, finding a good DAC and determining it’s sweet-spot, then feeding it well with a good computer configuration and surprisingly (to me anyway) – the right software. Almost seems simple to me now but if you feel that DAC’s ‘sweet-spot’ is best exposed by keeping the filtering and processing out of the DAC and in the world of state-of-the-art, ever evolving software, you need the power of appropriately matched hardware and that is not so cheap and easy.

My run through this stuff gives me ideas on where the really big differences are in hyper-expensive DACs too. I think they mostly come down to playing to the DAC chip’s sweet spot with the ‘right’ software/firmware, quality power supplies, good communication implementations (USB, SPDIF, networking, etc.) and cosmetics. Compromise a little on cosmetics, do your own power supply optimization and most importantly – get that software playing to the chip’s sweet-spot out of the DAC - and I think you can get a real taste of the high-end for reasonable dollars.

 

[Billfort]

If I use all the tricks and tweaks I’ve talked about here right down to the Concero as the USB>SPDIF converter feeding the AudioNote PCM, it comes down to personal preference with 16/44.1 and I can see many preferring the presentation of the AudioNote. It’s clean, crisp and very spot-lit with lots of detail; fantastic ‘hi-fi’ stuff without any nasty edges. I suspect the old-style non-over-sampling DAC chip and nice tube analog output stage has a lot to do with this and I prefer the AN to the shiny new Concero for redbook when used ‘bit-prefect’ or with any of the Concero’s built-in up-scaling filters. If only 16/44.1 and with, well, any software other than HQplayer, I’d be done and stick with the AudioNote.

That’s with an old NOS DAC chip in a pricy package using a fancy tube output stage and limiting oneself to only redbook though – not something I want to do as I also love the sound of SACD/DSD files, especially when sourced from analog or DSD masters. I’m also experiencing more and more higher res PCM that can sound great – not night-and-day better than 16/44.1 and sometimes no different but these recordings occasionally close that gap and even surpass my vinyl – a very good thing. Maybe it’s better mastering, all in my head, whatever; I like it and want to play it – which the AudioNote can’t do without down-conversion.

Enter the Concero HD with HQplayer playing to what I feel is its sweet-spot – DSD128. I’m only starting to understand what is going on here technically and am not good at explaining it (some good info here) but this has been a game changer for me. 16/44.1 material has all the traits I like about the AudioNote but with a little better focus, timbre to instruments, flesh-and-blood to vocals – just a more realistic presentation in the room. Maybe a little softer and creamy smooth than straight PCM (more analog?) but I like it that way. And then there is DSD & hi res – more of the same with DSD really the star for me where I think on some recordings, I’m hearing my system at its absolute best.

My cheapest source setup has become my go-to way of listening to music most evenings.

don’t know where I’d go from here but it would be in the same direction. Probably no more tweaky stuff (like wire) – I feel it does play a part in where I’m at but that there are better pay-offs elsewhere. Maybe take galvanic isolation further with something like fiber based Ethernet but unless I hear something better, I’ll stick with a DSD focus for all source – it just suits my palate. Higher rate DSD like 256 or 512 to a dedicated DSD DAC might be something to try – maybe an Exasound or Lampizator DAC that uses a tube output stage and doesn’t even attempt to convert PCM on-board – DSD only. I’d like to go further with HQplayer (try more filter options and higher rate DSD) which means more processing power in my player PC – maybe something based on the new Core i7 Haswell-E processors…

Pretty big steps which is why I am happy to call this done, for now.

 

[Fran604g]

Thank you, Bill for sharing your experiences (and for chronicling them) of the development of your digital system and the integration of it into your iconic analogue system!

In 2012, I built a simple wifi PC server (Win7/jRiver) and never looked back. I still listen to vinyl, but the ease of using my Android "phone" to que up whatever I want to listen to at the moment has changed me forever.

I will likely never upgrade to anything as elaborate as you have, but you've given me some insight, and like others, when the perfect turnkey setup comes along at the right price-point, I'll be all over it! :yes:

Fran