R-26F Upgrade Path

Spoot

New Member
I didn't want to resurrect a dead post path, but am interested in SET12 and/or DaveC's suggestions.

I bought a pair of R-26Fs recently and am curious as to a suggested upgrade path. I'm relatively handy, and pretty good at DIY stuff (somewhat forced learning early in life due to owning a mid-70s MGB and a 76 AMF Harley Davidson - if you want to get home with either of those you build your McGyver muscles pretty damn fast!). I'd rather do the upgrades 'some at a time', is that a reasonable approach, or is it a case where doing some just moves the limit elsewhere and you don't get much out of it until you do it all? From reading the threads SET12 and DaveC have put out, can't tell if inductors or caps are the best place to start.

Mostly interested in vinyl play, running them through a Yamaha RX-V677 and Phono Box S. Currently have them Bi-Amped, that helped a bit, but the soundstage isn't as defined as SET12 and DaveC indicate it can be.

Much obliged for any insight!

Spoot
 
No Kidding!

DaveC's are similar to the R26F's in fact I believe they may very well use the same tweeters as our 26 and 28F's even though his speaker is of a different series of models.

If i had to do it all over again I would do the 26's for their sheer speed of the mid woofers. Then I would made up a pair of subs.

I suspect your R26Fs has similar network to my 28's

All the parts are audible in both Dave's and my system but we both have very high quality associated equipment.

IMO the inductors are the most serious and I'm sure DaveC would agree.

Unwind a cheap inductor and you'll see how far the amplifier has to go to control a driver. I think my Forte Iron Core was something like 48ft through 22AWG wire.

Maybe you post a photo of your 26 network.

It helps to do it all as you can see mine is pretty packed.

You could try the woofer inductors first. Just be careful how you mount it in the encloser stay clear of any metal that is magnetic brass is good.

SET12
 
Hi Set12,

Here's my network: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Gv40msMI3cPhdMg2 It's pretty uninspiring compared to what I've seen on the various threads I have looked at!

Looking at the network , I can see why it makes more sense to do everything at once. Stock network is pretty simple, looks like two inductors, two caps, resistor. It makes more sense to build a replacement network entirely and swap that in. Do I I go back with the same components, just better parts, or is there reason to add more? How do you determine which of the various part options are the correct ones? Not so much manufacturer (though that is important as well), but what gauge wire on the inductor, or what uF/V combination on the capacitors? Then there's the options within the specs, looking at the Solen Litz inductors, there's the (10AWG) starting line L10.33 around $40 up to the L109.1 around $215, like most things in life, I suspect there's a diminishing return - as in I may hear an obvious difference between the $40 and the $70 inductor, but I may not be able to hear the difference between a $70 and a $200 - at least until I upgrade some other equipment. Any suggestions for reading material (especially at a 'for dummies' level) is appreciated!

I'm looking for something that will make a difference, but at this point I'm in for the experience more than the discernment. I'd like to be able to make a mistake and not have to worry about fritzing a $200 cap, and either upgrade from where I end up, or keep an eye out for something popping on CL or thrift store as a next level project. Maybe I spend $200 on parts and I get where I would be if I had just spent $200 more on the speakers in the first place, but then they aren't really 'mine' are they? There's an intrinsic value in changing the stock to something individual that exists outside of the dollar value. At least for me; I like to tinker with stuff.

Look forward to your reply!

Spoot
 

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Hi Set12,

Here's my network: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Gv40msMI3cPhdMg2 It's pretty uninspiring compared to what I've seen on the various threads I have looked at!

Looking at the network , I can see why it makes more sense to do everything at once. Stock network is pretty simple, looks like two inductors, two caps, resistor. It makes more sense to build a replacement network entirely and swap that in. Do I I go back with the same components, just better parts, or is there reason to add more? How do you determine which of the various part options are the correct ones? Not so much manufacturer (though that is important as well), but what gauge wire on the inductor, or what uF/V combination on the capacitors? Then there's the options within the specs, looking at the Solen Litz inductors, there's the (10AWG) starting line L10.33 around $40 up to the L109.1 around $215, like most things in life, I suspect there's a diminishing return - as in I may hear an obvious difference between the $40 and the $70 inductor, but I may not be able to hear the difference between a $70 and a $200 - at least until I upgrade some other equipment. Any suggestions for reading material (especially at a 'for dummies' level) is appreciated!

I'm looking for something that will make a difference, but at this point I'm in for the experience more than the discernment. I'd like to be able to make a mistake and not have to worry about fritzing a $200 cap, and either upgrade from where I end up, or keep an eye out for something popping on CL or thrift store as a next level project. Maybe I spend $200 on parts and I get where I would be if I had just spent $200 more on the speakers in the first place, but then they aren't really 'mine' are they? There's an intrinsic value in changing the stock to something individual that exists outside of the dollar value. At least for me; I like to tinker with stuff.

Look forward to your reply!

Spoot

I'm very sorry I didn't see your post earlier.

Thanks for the R26F photo's!

Man I see they used bipolar caps for both the woofer and the tweeter. The stock R28F uses a nicer film cap at least across the woofers.

I think it would be cool if you try and remove the stock network and make it an outboard network like I did. Its great for comparisons, its also great in justifying a bigger project like I did. And it can sound better as parts are microphonic which is why many high end speakers use networks out board.

I'll try and answer one question at a time.

Yes your using the same value parts of your own networks. Voltages are at least rated for 100 Volts typically or higher but you'll never be anywhere near 100 volts. The Inductors will have different DC resistance specs but don't worry about that as lower is better.

Use the largest AWG Air Core inductors that you can afford. The Litz is better as it has a higher Quality Factor meaning it will pass more information. Sometimes this is good and sometimes this is bad. If the speaker sounds bright then you might not want to use Litz. I think the tweeters sound great in the R28F's and I suspect your using the same tweeter. So all Litz is worth a shot. On the other hand they are much more expensive and given a choice I prefer Large. You could do a combo of Litz for the tweeter and solid core for the woofer.

No I wouldn't add more parts. I had to parallel some parts to get the values I needed. Like for caps where paralleling capacitance is adding and paralleling to of the same value resistors will halve their value. you can go up in wattage but that is not necessary either.

The stock board really has no room for better quality parts.

After I got all my parts I figured out a layout and bought my boxes. There are some rules with laying out Inductors especially air cores like they have to be at right angles to each other otherwise they talk to each other and thats called mutual inductance and thats bad. You also want to use non magnet materials to fasten the inductors down. Brass works good or in my case I used nylon ties and strapped them down.

The stock board really has no room for better quality parts.

You know I came down with Tinnitus my ears ring all the time and I can still hear differences. Sometimes it takes time and also your system set up is a big part in what you will be able to hear. I shake my head all the time in what I run across.

So as far as AWG inductors you use they must be the same value mH wise. I don't know their values you'll have to find someone that can measure them maybe a good repair shop in the area can.

The only reading material is what I wrote and what I did is very controversial indeed. All I can say is I had inspiration from Steen Duelund and North Creek Audio who is out of business but has part of the website up. This interesting reading. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Inductors/inductors.html and if that doesn't inspire you try this https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/hug/147282/

Then take a look at these B&W networks B&W speakers are expensive to begin with http://www.northcreekmusic.com/B-W_Crossovers/b-w_crossovers.html but they use the cheesiest crossover components. The fact that Klipsch has only a few components make them a lot of fun with big resulting sound for me.

I can't say what you can or can't hear but for me my associated gear was of high quality and I had a stock pair of Klipsch Forte's for a side by side comparison. I once had a friend who is a musician as well as an audio buff with a $50,000 home system listen to the two speakers and he could only stand to listen to a stock Forte for a mere 20 seconds.

It is hard for equipment choices we all have different tastes for sure. For me I tend to be a minimalist. I like tubes I don't use a preamp I use a Transformer Volume Control which can be used with any preamp or Integrated Amplifier or power amp as most volume controls are one of the weakest links in a system. I built my own from a pair of http://www.intactaudio.com/module.html I also have a thread on their build .

I hope this helps you out.

Dan
 
Dan,

Great info! Thanks for putting that together. I will get the inductance measured on the current inductors and go from there. Looking at the Solen site, the inductor pictures show a large and small, do they come as a pair, one for the woofer, one for the tweeter? I can find matching 3.3uf caps, but looks like 47uf caps are the closest to the 43s. The obbligato gold seem to be reasonably priced, I looked at some of the others I have read about (Mundorf, Duelund, etc.). Found what appears to be a matching resistor as well - Duelund cast resistor 4R7 10W. I'll order the parts once I get the inductors measured. Are matched capacitors important if they aren't on the same board? I would assume that having matched capacitors in a circuit could be important, but figure it's not relevant between two speakers.

I have had tinnitus for as long as I can remember. I also have some odd hearing characteristics, I am missing certain frequencies but I can 'hear' far higher than I should be able to. Found that out when I was in an old art museum in San Antonio that used sonic motion detectors. Came through a gallery door way and it was like a knitting needle was going right in my ear. Not a lot of fun. Had to look in each room and see where the sensors were so I could get past them.

I'll keep you posted on progress!

JD
 
So your saying the R26F uses a 43uf cap? If so I would use the Obbligatto Gold 22uf. Measure them and put them in pairs closest to the same value in uf's

Matched parts are nice to have if you can get them.

Solen Inductors do not come in pairs to speak of, you have order the value you want x 2 for each Inductor. You could inquire as to matching pairs which often is done for an extra fee.

You want both speakers networks to have very close values.
 
I traced out the connections based on my reading of the circuit board. I am assuming that the board is as simple as it looks. I have a 43uF cap and 1.22mH inductor in the woofer/LF bi-amp circuit, and a 4.7 ohm resistor, 3.3 cap and 0.27 inductor in the tweeter/HF circuit. If the job of the capacitor is to control the frequency allowed to go to the speaker, then changing the capacitor value in the LF circuit changes what frequency comes out of that circuit? How does one select the capacitor value, what pro/con ideas do you consider when you do that? Not questioning the recommendation, more trying to understand what you know that went into the recommendation. I'll order the matched bits where possible.

Related to your suggestion for brass in the network box, do you breadboard a network to prototype it? Seems like you might get some interference from the way the boards are constructed, but curious to know if it provides anything close to the final sound, or is about good from a 'yeah, well, sound comes out so we got that going for us' continuity type test?

Thanks!
JD
 

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