Ramblings about system goals, listening fatigue, diminishing returns

I'm using 70s SS and speakers. I think I'm getting what, maybe 50% or so of what's in the music? And it sounds great. For me this it the price point. Anything less and I wouldn't bother. Anything more wouldn't be as much fun for me. I could spend as much as the house cost but the diminishing return part wont let me do it. It would take all the fun out of it. I'm just not that into it. If I wasn't having so much fun collecting I would go 10 grand or so for the sound, but no more.
 
No....

I think it’s sentimental romanticism towards equipment in OEM condition. There are much better replacement parts being made that would greatly improve performance of vintage equipment, then if you took some of the pinnacle vintage TOTL pieces of equipment and rebuilt them with same value high specification German internal components as original you would get a huge increase in sound capabilities. The only reason new TOTL equipment sounds better than classic TOTL is the new high specification internal components. But I’m not talking about every vintage piece of equipment. It’s the logistics or the concept that is slowing people down from updating their equipment, so in truth there is no real comparison between old and new because most vintage equipment is not up to spec. You take the best new and the best vintage TOTL with the same quality internal components and you have a completely different comparison of sound....

Why, because there were pieces of vintage equipment of better design. So making new expensive equipment a standard is a fallacy !!!
 
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No....

I think it’s sentimental romanticism towards equipment in OEM condition. There are much better replacement parts being made that would greatly improve performance of vintage equipment, then if you took some of the pinochle vintage TOTL pieces of equipment and rebuilt them with same value high specification German internal components as original you would get a huge increase in sound capabilities. The only reason new TOTL equipment sounds better than classic TOTL is the new high specification internal components. But I’m not talking about every vintage piece of equipment. It’s the logistics or the concept that is slowing people down from updating their equipment, so in truth there is no real comparison between old and new because most vintage equipment is not up to spec. You take the best new and the best vintage TOTL with the same quality internal components and you have a completely different comparison of sound....

Why, because there were pieces of vintage equipment of better design. So making new expensive equipment a standard is a fallacy !!!
So let's see if I'm hearing you right. You are suggesting that I can pull a "proper and suitable" candidate from the 70 ss collection. Then replace still good but known to be "obsolete" parts with new "up to date" improved parts where possible and it might sound a LOT better. I'm not talking about changing caps for caps. I talking about successfully bringing it into this century.
 
So let's see if I'm hearing you right. You are suggesting that I can pull a "proper and suitable" candidate from the 70 ss collection. Then replace still good but known to be "obsolete" parts with new "up to date" improved parts where possible and it might sound a LOT better. I'm not talking about changing caps for caps. I talking about successfully bringing it into this century.

Try it with cars...or video cameras...or medical diagnostic gear...or...
 
So let's see if I'm hearing you right. You are suggesting that I can pull a "proper and suitable" candidate from the 70 ss collection. Then replace still good but known to be "obsolete" parts with new "up to date" improved parts where possible and it might sound a LOT better. I'm not talking about changing caps for caps. I talking about successfully bringing it into this century.
When EchoWars worked on my Kenwood 700's he indicated that those were one of his real specialties as he had rebuilt many over the years. I have heard from reputation his work quite likely improves the sound further over just a recap job and I tend to believe it. However I can't say for sure (maybe no one can) because my memory from 1975 just isn't that good! I don't know about specs either. Maybe it would lose in a spec war if that's your thing.

Point is, you need someone who has made a particular model of vintage amp his specialty and has spent years experimenting and finding the perfect components.. Then maybe the old vintage model amps could better hold their own with modern day hi fi. Of course there will be those who say that those are modded and thus not really vintage..
 
So let's see if I'm hearing you right. You are suggesting that I can pull a "proper and suitable" candidate from the 70 ss collection. Then replace still good but known to be "obsolete" parts with new "up to date" improved parts where possible and it might sound a LOT better. I'm not talking about changing caps for caps. I talking about successfully bringing it into this century.

That’s right...

There is a very well known company to many on this site in Germany that sells technically improved internal components. You’d have to PM one of the better known rebuilders for the name of the company and a necessary parts list for a particular piece of equipment. Maybe set up a date for rebuild....
 
When EchoWars worked on my Kenwood 700's he indicated that those were one of his real specialties as he had rebuilt many over the years. I have heard from reputation his work quite likely improves the sound further over just a recap job and I tend to believe it. However I can't say for sure (maybe no one can) because my memory from 1975 just isn't that good! I don't know about specs either. Maybe it would lose in a spec war if that's your thing.

Point is, you need someone who has made a particular model of vintage amp his specialty and has spent years experimenting and finding the perfect components.. Then maybe the old vintage model amps could better hold their own with modern day hi fi. Of course there will be those who say that those are modded and thus not really vintage..

True....

I think that if the replaced parts are within original values only high tech replacements and the original design has not been changed, then it is an improvement and not a mod !!
 
See that’s the thing....

Newer equipment has high tech internal components and vintage does not. Now if vintage equipment had the same quality internal components there could be a comparison that would decide which design was superior. Only then would the truth be known....

Most people with new equipment think that new has to be better than outdated...so ensues the opinion.
 
I'm not looking for superior. I'm looking for "major" up to date improvement.
I have a Heath AR1500A. Plenty of power, sounds really good as made, no apparent defects at this time, lots of plug in boards for ease of service. All the info for new improved over original parts is probably right here in house on AK.
That's the one I would try to do myself.
 
I don't know about you guys though the Chinese builds of classic circuits is often pretty damn good.

I've found the Quad 405 copies by Breeze Audio to be fantastic. They sound like whatever you put in front of them. For me that means I need a tube buffer like Schiit Saga or preamp such as a Marantz M7 copy so I can tube roll and tweak this sound with different RCA leads.

Likewise I've a JLH 1969 Hood amp repro which sounds absolutely magical paired with a Shanling CD player and Boston Acoustics A100 speakers. It just gets out of the way and makes beautiful music.

Probably my best sounding combination is an Oldchen K3 with Dayton USA PS220-8 based speakers which is nothing short of spectacular.

Now I have heard systems with $15,000 speakers driven by a $10,000 amp and it was indeed better than what I have though it wasn't actually that much better. In fact knowing the cost differential and the relatively small improvement in SQ has caused me to stop trying to improve on my sound chain and I can now just enjoy it.

So yes, the point at which we all stop is different for each of us and there is a point where diminishing returns kick in rather severely. It's also possible it's just my ears too.

For me it was interesting to note that the amp in that system alone was about the cost of my entire system including the sources.
 
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I don't know about you guys though the Chinese builds of classic circuits is often pretty damn good.

I've found the Quad 405 copies by Breeze Audio to be fantastic. They sound like whatever you put in front of them. For me that means I need a tube buffer like Schiit Saga or preamp such as a Marantz M7 copy so I can tube roll and tweak this sound with different RCA leads.

Likewise I've a JLH 1969 Hood amp repro which sounds absolutely magical paired with a Shanling CD player and Boston Acoustics A100 speakers. It just gets out of the way and makes beautiful music.

Probably my best sounding combination is an Oldchen K3 with Dayton USA PS220-8 based speakers which is nothing short of spectacular.

Now I have heard systems with $15,000 speakers driven by a $10,000 amp and it was indeed better than what I have though it wasn't actually that much better. In fact knowing the cost differential and the relatively small improvement in SQ has caused me to stop trying to improve on my sound chain and I can now just enjoy it.

So yes, the point at which we all stop is different for each of us and there is a point where diminishing returns kick in rather severely. It's also possible it's just my ears too.

For me it was interesting to note that the amp in that system alone was about the cost of my entire system including the sources.

These are the kind of posts I love and was hoping for more of from this thread. The giant-killer systems that took a lot of research and trial & error to figure out.
 
See that’s the thing....

Newer equipment has high tech internal components and vintage does not. Now if vintage equipment had the same quality internal components there could be a comparison that would decide which design was superior. Only then would the truth be known....

Most people with new equipment think that new has to be better than outdated...so ensues the opinion.
In the case of my EW built Kenwoods, I doubt any parts were added that had not yet been invented to some extent when the amp was originally built. I think it is more fine tuning by component spec, rating, quality build. Of course much of the original parts replaced were not made anymore so equivalents were no doubt used. But spending years working with an amp design, especially if you are an enterprising sort with a good ear likely will come up with improvements to the sound that the original engineers never had the chance to do. Whether any of that is modification from original is dependent on who you ask. I for one am pleased with it and not looking to replace it in my lifetime.
 
In the case of my EW built Kenwoods, I doubt any parts were added that had not yet been invented to some extent when the amp was originally built. I think it is more fine tuning by component spec, rating, quality build. Of course much of the original parts replaced were not made anymore so equivalents were no doubt used. But spending years working with an amp design, especially if you are an enterprising sort with a good ear likely will come up with improvements to the sound that the original engineers never had the chance to do. Whether any of that is modification from original is dependent on who you ask. I for one am pleased with it and not looking to replace it in my lifetime.

Well all that matters is that you enjoy what you have, but most people think that there hasn’t been any real technological break throughs since the design of their equipment and that’s the point. The materials and technology used to make individual internal components has changed greatly over the last fifty years creating better SQ. That’s the only thing making new equipment sound the way it does. Then you have to realize that the Germans develop their technology based upon the advancement of technology without cost effective limitations. I’m sure there are many companies all over the world that develop improved technology, but the Germans have a passion for the development of technology and always have. You just have to be willing to pay for something allot better.....
 
That’s the only thing making new equipment sound the way it does.
Not in all cases. You could literally rebuild an Audio Research SP-3a preamp (among the very best in the 70s) from scratch using all new components like teflon coupling caps and it would never offer the performance of a REF6/REF2 Phono. Or a Threshold Stasis 2 and similarly it would never offer the performance of XA-200.8s.

Other factors include improved circuit topology, circuit board layout, power supply design and stiffness along with use of balanced connectivity.
 
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