Recapping Guidelines: Which Muse-type, Which Standard

[pustelniakr]

When re-capping a unit (tuna, amp, tape deck, etc.), what are the guidelines for which caps should be replaced with high performance 'lytics, and which are OK to replace with standard 'lytics?

I know that it would be wise to at least replace all the smaller 'lytics with new...even if only standard types, but, I might as well achieve a modicum of sonic improvement while I'm in there

Those high performance 'lytics are pricey , like Nichicon Muse, or Black Gate. I don't want to just throw money indescriminately at gear. Instinct tells me significant cash can be saved by going "performance" only where it would make an audible difference.

Also, which resistors should be replaced (generally speaking), and with what? Metal film, carbon comp, carbon film, metal oxide, etc.

I thought I would draw upon the experience of the masters, before diving into costly research of my own.

Thanks in advance...
Rich P

 

[macaltec]

This is an area of interest to me as well. I'll be watching and reading.

mac

 

[Charivari]

You've brought up some good questions that I've often wondered about and that have held me back from engaging in some recapping projects. I would like to add the some other question that has been bothering me as well. As to upsizing the capacitor value, where is it a good idea (by how much), when is it just a waste, and where will upsizing the cap be detrimental?

- JP

 

[warnerwhf]

Just guessing I'd say the audio path would be where you may want to spend a little more on the premium brands and the power supply for the standard grade caps.

 

[bigphil]

this might help:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49413

and do a search in the forum on "recap" theres LOTS on this topic

 

[bigphil]

and heres a map for nichicon music-designed caps

http://www.nichicon.com/english/seihin/alm_mini/daia_f.htm

 

[lorne]

This is an explosive, passionately argued topic in some quarters. I have not done the science, and I am not in a position of any kind to do so. But after following the people who I think have done some measurements and observations, I have come to my own conclusions:

Do NOT spend money on expensive, so-called 'audio caps' in audio amplifiers. A good, industrial grade capacitor series that offers low ESR, long life, and 105 degree rating is an excellent choice.

I have had considerable correspondence with experienced, proficient builders who use such products regardless of the project. The ones that I am aiming for as we 'speak' are Panasonic/Matsushita FC, Chemicon LXY and LXZ. There are others, including Nichicon. The obtaining of large value, power supply board capacitors remains an issue for me. Still, I am no longer seeking the Rolex or Gucci of large filter caps.

Much more important an issue is how you apply them to the circuit board in terms of your soldering skills. I think that GOOD soldering is much more of an art than is usually given credit. Everything is at stake in this. Even the world’s most expenisve electro-can is compromised by coldish soldering or other sorts of abuse, all of which may on occaision be hard to avoid.

Don'worryaboudit!

 

[jcmjrt]

Do NOT spend money on expensive, so-called 'audio caps' in audio amplifiers. A good, industrial grade capacitor series that offers low ESR, long life, and 105 degree rating is an excellent choice.

What experience I have (and it's limited), I tend to agree. Supposedly the last output cap in the signal path is the most important. When there was a blind test that I attended switching between output caps, there wasn't a huge amount of difference between any of them (Mundorf Silver to electrolytic). The differences that were there didn't relate the perceived quality of sound to the expense of the cap. The worst sounding caps to most were the two most expensive caps. A different amplifier, etc could have yielded different results but I would at least say that spending the big bucks doesn't guarantee the best sound.

 

[mhardy6647]

If the signal flows through it, use a good cap. My definition of 'a good cap' probably starts a lot more modestly than many folks': Sprague 716 (even 715).

 

[hpsenicka]

It seems to be a common practise among a number of experienced and well respected techs to use a very good quality capacitor (like a Panasonic FC) as the "baseline" or standard replacement/upgrade, and then selectively use higher quality capacitors as the application and/or budget allows.

Black Gates capacitors seem to be a very popular choice to replace electrolytics in the audio signal path.

I guess to some extent it depends whether you are wanting to do a straightforward repair or preventative recapping job, or whether you are tweaking for optimal "audiophile" performance. If the unit is a long-term keeper and the price differential is not too significant, I would choose the better quality caps... just because.

If OTOH it is just a routine repair job, then you probably should give the owner of the gear the option to choose....

Personally I don't have sufficient direct experience to really comment on whether there is a noticable difference... I have to rely on the advise and recommendations of those with more experience in these matters.

Although there are dissenting opinions, there does seem to be a general consensus that the boutique caps can make a difference.

 

[bigphil]

You guys hit the nail on the head. I just finished reading this article on choosing and understand caps, it goes through a lot of the questions asked here - really informative.

http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm

but to summarize. A lot of these caps, for instance black gates and nichicon muse are a load of bs (IMO). Basically once you level the playing field in terms of ESR, max temp and life rating, all electrolytic MUST operate under the same characteristics. This means that whether the cap is a nichicon, black gate, etc. if they are all electrolytic, they all generally produce the same results in an audio circuit.

The article goes on to explain that certain characteristics are defined by a cap's main dielectric element - what it is made out of. This is defined by its K-value (basically how much the material can store per unit volume). Electrolytics all have the same K-value (in general) so they will all have the same response in an audio circuit.

Film, polyester, polymer, oil, etc, etc, all have MUCH better responses in audio circuits (this is explained by their lower K-values), but they are also more expensive, and generally much bigger in physical size.

It can be proven that due to their characteristics (more accurately properties) all electrolytics will have crappy dynamics, higher distortion, etc - all the stuff we do not want. While caps like film, polmers, (teflon being the best) have *almost* ideal responses in *most* audio circuits.


If you didnt follow all of that, there is only one thing that you really have to remember. Most of us have amps that *need* bigger capacitances, in this case the use of a electrolytic is undeniable - BUT we can remedy the short-comings of a electrolytic by "shunting" it with a film (or high end) cap of smaller capacitance (usually 1/100th). This means placing the film in parallel with the electrolytic

However, if you can use anything other than a tant, ceramic, or electrolytic, do it. In general any film, polymer, etc capactor will be MUCH better in an audio circuit than those three.

Sorry if that was a bore/repost for some of you guys, but I really liked that article, I wanted to summarize for anyone that didnt feel like reading it.

The authors made some very bold claims, one of the more interesting ones is that the characteristics that make SS gear sound terrible when compared to tubed gear is invariably because of the electrolytic cap itself. <- and because 90% of the gear we have use 90% electrolytic caps. I think I would tend to agree with this, after reading the article.

If you have always been told "alwyas bypass an electrolytic with a film" and have EVER wondered *why* you are being told that, I strongly recommend you read that article, it goes into much greater detail, and is extremly well put together.

Oh, last thing - everything the authors did (experiment wise) they show you EXACTLY how they did it, so you can reproduce the results for yourself if you dont believe it or fully comprehend what is happening (sometimes doing something for yourself makes it a lot easier to understand).

Feel free to rebut, argue, discount anything I have said, I would love to hear more opinions or read more articles like that one.

 

[lorne]

In general any film, polymer, etc capactor will be MUCH better in an audio circuit than those three.

There are cases where specific types are preferred in a circuit — the choice of which is commensurate with engineering principles. That being said, it is universally accepted that, tants aside, electrolytic coupling caps are good candidates for substitution by other types of capacitors when space and budget permitt. In my previous post I was merely referring to electrolytic caps.

Bypassing electrolytics seems to more of a mixed bag these days. My read on it says that improvements and changes in electrolytics have brought on new opinions about when and where to do it. Once again the issue is debated and sawed over.

These days I am favoring longevity as I find it specified in electro-cap spec sheets. What does it mean to buy an expensive, audio electro which is predictabley susceptible to degradation in half the time of some industrial, low ESR types?

Heat is directly related to the longevity specs in as much as a cap's life is determined by the hours it runs at capacity at the rated temperature limit. What I see from reading these specs — and I could have got the wrong impression — generally the longest lived caps are rated at 105 degrees. The BG's and Muse caps I have sitting in my parts bins are rated for 85 degrees. Why? Would it not be the case that an audio enthusiast who is concerned enough to even worry about caps be needing and wanting a capacitor series that lasts at least as long as two turntable cartridges before degradation begins? Is a Muse or BG cap going to be as effective as a long-life, industrial cap after five years of hard service in the humid heat of Louisiana, Hong Kong or Osaka?

Just some things I have been thinking about, and I have been soothed and reassured by the opinons of others, which while they are not very palatable to many people, otherwise seem sensible. There IS more involved, but I do not feel that I am the one to present it. Rod Elliott of Rod Elliott Sound Products has had some interesting things to say based on some experiments — particularly in regards to what can and can't be heard in the bandwidth that audio is concerned with — at least in amplifiers. Whether you agree with him or not, a search for his remarks and articles will get any interested party to the core of the conflageration. If neither side is convincing a reader one way or another, the read may at least temper the desire for those pretty-cased audio caps.

 

[Yamaha B-2]

I just finished reading this article on choosing and understand caps, it goes through a lot of the questions asked here - really informative.

http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm

Note that this article is 25+ years old. None of the good caps people are considering today were around back then. 1980 is about the time devices started changing considerably based on 'science' rather than art in the elctronics components business. While the basic ESR and other info is still the same, this article needs to be rewritten with modern caps.

That said, the BGs and other high-end caps EW used to recap my gear with has made a very significant difference for the better in their sound. Especially the phono stage where we used BGs.

 

[lorne]

Yamaha B-2 wrote:

... has made a very significant difference for the better

It is significant that you note that there was a difference, but at the same time there was an improvement? There is an argument that says a ‘difference’ often sounds to us as an impovement — at least initially. But let us assume that you are exactly right, and my gut feeling is that you are.

At this point I would like to ask a question and also register a comment: if your unit was say ... er ... x years old ... say ten years plus? ... your capacitors have already degraded to such an extent that even the most pedestrian replacement with generic caps might have boosted some part of the sonic performance. Since this thread is about choices, how do we your readers make an assessment from such an experience that might help us to make our own respective selections. Answer: we could follow suit and install Black Gates, or X, Y, Z — but where is the control standard for what 'better' really means in respect to one cap over another? Have you only shown us that new caps in older machines can improve the sound regardless of what special brand or type they may be? From there, should we not pursue and select a decent, reliable indusrial grade caps with equal confidence as if we had chosen Black Gates or some other specific audio exotic? If so, I would resoundingly agree with, 'Yes, of course'.

 

[Yamaha B-2]

There is an argument that says a ‘difference’ often sounds to us as an impovement — at least initially.

Argue all you want. I am just stating what I hear.

At this point I would like to ask a question and also register a comment: if your unit was say ... er ... x years old ... say ten years plus? ... your capacitors have already degraded to such an extent that even the most pedestrian replacement with generic caps might have boosted some part of the sonic performance. Since this thread is about choices, how do we your readers make an assessment from such an experience that might help us to make our own respective selections. Answer: we could follow suit and install Black Gates, or X, Y, Z — but where is the control standard for what 'better' really means in respect to one cap over another? Have you only shown us that new caps in older machines can improve the sound regardless of what special brand or type they may be? From there, should we not pursue and select a decent, reliable indusrial grade caps with equal confidence as if we had chosen Black Gates or some other specific audio exotic? If so, I would resoundingly agree with, 'Yes, of course'.

You are more than welcome to spend your money and install anything you want. i.e...industrial caps. Then, after you get a good baseline reference you can then pull them out and install "good" caps (BG, etc.). Once you have done so be sure to report back to us what your non-subjective comments are. :yes:

 

[bigphil]

You know what Lorne, I'm in 100% agreement with you - I've been scrutinizing over nichicon specs compared to Panasonic FC specs and I can't seem to find any differences that would make me thing the nichicons would make them sound much better, I agree - I'd rather have the FC's becasue they are more stringintly tested up to 105C and seem to last longer. So I have basically already decided not to buy into the Muse line of caps. I would love to see if you can find a similar article like the one I posted, with more modern caps. My thoughts on the subject are that not much has changed, simply because if the compnaies would improve on anything in 20 years, it would be the dielectric constant, to make caps smaller and have larger capacities - which makes them more non-linear (the governing physical laws can't change over 20 years) so I still believe that the article is very appropriate - if not just as appropriate as it was when it was written.

 

[LBPete]

It all may be a moot point because Rubycon has discontinued the Black Gate line. They are no longer making them and no one else is making anything similar. This will likely drive the already outrageously high price of the remaining inventory of these caps past the point of reason.

I did a pretty through search for information on Black Gates. There was a lot of discussion on their unique construction and purity but I could not find any objective testing comparing them to good quality conventional caps.

Another downside is the very limited size availability of the Black Gates. As for a price comparison, the driver board for a 9090DB uses two 330 uf 63v caps. This exact size is not available from Blackgate, you have to go up to 100v at almost $13 each! By comparison, A 330 uf 100v FC is just over $2. That is a huge difference in cost. Multiply that by all the caps you may want to change and ask yourself, how much "better" is the sound quality.

I'm going to stick with FCs. They are very high quality, relatively inexpensive and readily available.

- Pete

 

[bigphil]

Another respected opinion I just stumbled upon:

I've experimented and considered the "audiophile" electrolytics. But based upon price vs. performance......I've simply opted to tackle the mounting problem.......just so I don't have to sacrifice sound quality, for a "higher" grade electrolytic that doesn't have much if any published specifications better than normal grades......other than lettering, temperature rating, or ????

 

[lorne]

Originally posted by bigphil: I would love to see if you can find a similar article like the one I posted, with more modern caps.

I don't think I am free to identify the person, but I will say that someone in the audio community is going to publish (on the net) an article dealing with capacitors. I believe it will be at least partly of not primarily directed at electrolytic types. It should provide an objective and empirical review based on tests and experiments. The writer is familiar enough with audio to also give some subjective comments as well — IF that is his/her intention to do so. When the time comes, I will put a notice up in this thread with the applicable URL. I have no idea in regards to a date or anything. I just know that it is in the 'works' and thus should reflect the most recent production. Cheers — Lorne

 

[pustelniakr]

Capacitors: A Field Guide to Types and Habitats

This is a link to a simple yet elegant discussion of the strengths, weaknesses, and applications of many of the modern capacitor types.

Enjoy

Rich P