Recapping Guidelines: Which Muse-type, Which Standard

THANKS pustelniakr! The article could have gone into more detail in regards to the application notes. But on the whole, it is an excellent revision. All of what Mr Bissell says is stated and hashed over here and there all over the internet. But this little 'field guide' puts a lot of useful information together in a digestible form. I am always looking for this type of communication — something that is useful for the person who is neither a novice, nor yet a proficient electronics tech-head. Bissell does not presume prior knowledge, yet he manages to stretch the information far enough to present something more useful than mere passing interest.

Anyone who is in the need should follow the parsed link in pustelniakr's last post.
 
I would like to see similar info on the new OSCON (organic semiconductor) electrolytics, and the solid polymer electrolytics. If anyone has seen information on using these 2 types in an audio and FM stereo coupling context, as relates to performance and noise, please post...

Also, if anybody has seen data sheets for Black Gate capacitors, please post a link. There are all kinds of references, and a few vendors, but no data sheets. I'm not designing in parts, based on subjective opinion. What I'm specifically interested in is ESR and loss tangent, more specifically, with the PK series.

Rich P
 
Hi guys,
as a sideline, I recently rc'd my denon pma 2000r which used Elna silmic as stock with Muse FZ and after less than 48 hours break-in the muse easily stomp the silmics.
I have used many panny fc's and to tell the truth I think I may be starting to lean a little toward the muses after this venture; admittedly none of the audio I have re-capped with fc's has been as modern as the denon, only in my vintage sui's, ect.. but I think the muse may have a better noisefloor than the fc and I am CERTAIN that they have a better noisefloor than the silmics I just replaced in this equipment.
It could be my perception, my imagination, or just the difference in equipment I have utilized them in but, the fc's seem a little brighter to me than the muse and once again, I am certain that the muse are more laid back than the silmic.

So far I know I prefer the FZ's over the Silmic's, and I'm starting to think the fc's too......
Just my .02
Tal
 
A muse on the Muse and the silk in Silmic

Tal wrote:
I have used many panny fc's and to tell the truth I think I may be starting to lean a little toward the muses after this venture
MUSE

Is it just me, or is it difficult keeping up-to-date with the Muse series. In my experience, Nichicon’s info is not nearly as easy to fathom as say Matsushita (Panasonic). They even provide a comprehensive substitution chart for discontinued series.

My own count of the Muse series comes to this (below). But perhaps some of them have gone out of production. It does NOT contain all the specialised audio caps, but rather just the ones I know to be in the Muse series. Or is it the case that all of their specialised audio caps ARE called Muse??

KZ - Premium grade
ES - Bi-polar (metallic grn)
MC - Very small size
SK -
SW - 7mmL
FG - (yellow-gold & plum)
FX - a rank down from FG (light grn & silver-white)
FZ -

SILMICS
Most of my audio pieces are Japanese domestic models. Pulling the hood on a stock unit usually reveals a mixture of standard caps and some species of Muse or an Elna audio series like the Duorex. At some point in the 80’s, the typical upper end, monster integrated amp came with big Silmic filter caps — like your Denon (and mine). It seems that this has become almost a classic application — to the extent that if and when I get around to recapping my Sansui, I intend to use Silmic II's. This is in order to conserve the stock appearance and character of a classic piece. (The jackets are in the same colours as the original Silmics). Apparently, I am not alone — in Japan anyway. On the other hand, my Pioneer A-717 will get whatever I decide is expedient.

Currently I am just working up a more conservative order for caps that will go into a CDP: Matsushita FC, Chemicon SRA, Nichicon SR; some Chemicon LXZ or LXY low ESR caps may get mixed in there too by the time I complete the list. Cheers — Lorne
 
What are your sources for quality caps, as you have listed?

It seems the standard onesy-twosy sources, like Newark, Allied, Digikey, and Mouser, do not carry such. I hate to buy from tiny sources that do not have more than a few values of any particular series. (Digikey does carry the Pannasonic FC and FM). AT the moment, I'm having great difficulty finding low ESR, Low loss-tangent caps inthe range of .1 to .47). For the .1, I have chosen the smallest polyester film package I could find. Otherwise, I'm using Nichicon PW (they go a bit smaller than FCs).

Rich P
 
What are your sources for quality caps, as you have listed?
I am a registered customer with RS here in Japan. The catalogue is similar but not identical to the English version. Stock may vary according to area — I don't know. In the past, I have noted that there were some items missing in the Japanese line-up, but the gap has been narrowing.

Some of the same difficulty applies as you described. Certain values in specific cap series are not offered. But, there are enough different series and manufacturers represented so that virtually any project should be able to be sourced for electrolytics and other types of capacitors. The RS catalogue is enormous; the Japanese 13th edition has over 2100 pages.

Currently, RS Japan has the Muse FG and FX in some values. The Chemicon LYZ and LXY (very low ESR) caps are rather restricted in terms of the values offered, and they are not cheap. But the Matsushita/Panasonic FC line is very well represented, and obviously they are in demand from the way they have been stocked in the last two editions of the catalogue. Values that may be missing in the above can be found in the Rubicon YXF and YXG series, and others such as the more standard Nichicon SR and Chemicon SRA. For big cans there is an assortment of Evox Rifa, Panasonic/Matsushita, BHC Aerovox, and Nichicon (like the ubiquitous KMM). From this line-up, you may see that RS is catering to industrial needs as opposed to boutique or cottage audiophilia. Fine by me.

Although RS will sell small quantities (eg. caps come in lots of 5 or 10) there may be a registration requirement in your area. You may have to register as a member, officer or affiliate of a company or institution. But check it out, because this may only apply to Japan. You can access the catalogue and info about RS on line. I hope that this helps. — Lorne
 
RS = Radio Shack? Not a chance of getting anything of this quality from Radio Shack in the US. They carry a very small line of components. Mostly they sell consumer electronics under their own brand.

- Pete
 
Resistors

RS Components in Japan (nothing to do with Radio Shack):

http://www.rswww.co.jp/cgi-bin/bv/home/Home.jsp?cacheID=jpie


I went into Radio Shack today to see if I could pick up some 500 ohm pots. They didn't have them. I do appreciate however that they carry the odd thing of interest such as deoxit, or solder tips (I suppose that's better than nothing). You really couldn't ask for much more from Radio Shack given that they do not market beyond the casual hobbyist. There is nothing beyond average parts at Radio Shack.


I think that some consider carbon composite resistors (the newer ones) to be more desirable in the signal path because the signal has less distance to travel through the carbon composites as compared to the metal film resistors.
Not sure how true that is, however it influenced me to put in a few new carbon composites into a project I was working on today.

I think that a certain amount of what we do when we aim for using quality parts is not necessarily to achieve a specific tangible result. To make sure that it sounds better by X amount because we used a BG cap instead of some other high quality 105 degree low ESR capacitor is a nice theory but that theory would be difficult and impractical to prove beyond a resonable doubt. There are so many variables that enter into the equation, that it would be difficult to say exactly what made the audio system sound better.

Imagine that you had two vintage solid state receivers. In one you recap with black gates, and in the other you use some other average, yet fine quality alternative such as Xicon low ESR 105 caps. We could set them up so that they were connected to the same set of speakers in the same room and play them one after the other. It would be interesting to set up a display such as this give the listener a chance to see if they can hear the difference between the receiver with 30 year old caps, new Black Gates (with all ceramic caps replaced with film or mica caps in the signal path), or other variations.


At the very least we will know that it well done, and certainly much better than it was had it had old caps that were 15 years old or maybe even 30 years old.
 
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AT the moment, I'm having great difficulty finding low ESR, Low loss-tangent caps in the range of .1 to .47). For the .1, I have chosen the smallest polyester film package I could find. Otherwise, I'm using Nichicon PW (they go a bit smaller than FCs).


In that range I've been using AVX Multi-Layer Film and Vishay/Sprague polyester orange drop caps. For an extra couple dollars you could get polypropylene. You will frequently come across electrolytics in older units in the small ranges such as 0.068uf which are probably impossible to find today. In that case you must substitute with a film capacitor, which is more desirable anyways. The AVX Multi-layers tend to be more compact than the orange drops.
 
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Pete: Here is the URL for the English page of this British industrial supply firm.
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/home.do?cacheID=uknetscape
To make sure that it sounds better by X amount because we used a BG cap instead of some other high quality 105 degree low ESR capacitor is a nice theory but that theory would be difficult and impractical to prove beyond a resonable doubt. There are so many variables that enter into the equation, that it would be difficult to say exactly what made the audio system sound better.
I could not agree with you more there, rulerboyz.
At the very least we will know that it well done, and certainly much better than it was had it had old caps that were 15 years old or maybe even 30 years old.
I have not intentionaly recapped an older unit in an attempt to improve the sound over whatever the original product offered as new. My interest has been to conserve or restore the component. In every case there has been an improvement. Or at least I perceived an improvement. In every case the capacitors were 15 years old or older. I am not an experienced technician or even an advanced hobbyist. But my experience indicates that performance improves when fresh caps are installed. And as rulerboyz points out, that is all that can be said.

As for improving on the original performance? I know my limitations and the dangers of just meddling. I leave the actual circuit modification to those who know what they are doing.

I encourage any interested novice to find or dig out a piece of equipment that he/she does not place a great value on. Start changing out caps — practice your soldering before you get onto a valued piece. Get a solder pump and some copper braid, end cutters and a good pair of needle nose pliers. Keep you hands out of ANY circuit that is powered up or left plugged into the mains. At first, you may lift a few traces. Find out how to repair them. Some writers have advised changing out only one, two or three caps at a time at first, after which the component can be tested. Cold solder joints may not be revealed very clearly if at all, but you will at least know if you have made the connections. In the end, you too may find that the sound has come up in quality. You may experience what sounds like a relative improvement even if you used quite standard grade, multi-purpose caps — advisablely from a company that has a good rep for QC and industrial reliability. The unit may be no better than the factory intended it to be, but it sure is fun when it begins to sing to you. And best of all, it will give the entire circuit a new lease on life in the years to come.
 
How do you know when to recap a unit ? Is there an age when it should be automatic ? I have an SX-1980 from new that has been in a cool basement for 90% of its life with a small fan for cooling.
 
Whatever1 said:
How do you know when to recap a unit ? Is there an age when it should be automatic ? I have an SX-1980 from new that has been in a cool basement for 90% of its life with a small fan for cooling.

Well the main candidate caps are the power supply filter caps, not so much for sound improvement but to prevent damage in the event that they ever vent and leak. This can cause damage and other components to fail. So research the threads and when you have some extra funds consider investing in a new set.

Lefty
 
Normally, the best candidates for change are the smaller caps in the signal circuits. These smaller caps are the ones where the greatest advancements have been made with modern caps. And they are the caps whose values tend to drift the most with age. Thus, they have greatest impact on sonic improvement.

The large PS filter caps generally need a good look, but don't 'need' to be changed unless there is some reason to believe that they are going bad (swelling, leakage, corrosion, etc.). However, changing them does provide an added measure of insurance.
 
Candidates for recapping

I think units that have gone several years without even being powered up are probably the best candidates for recapping. When a unit goes unused for years at a time there is a greater chance of the caps going bad.
 
Whatever1 said:
How do you know when to recap a unit ? Is there an age when it should be automatic ? I have an SX-1980 from new that has been in a cool basement for 90% of its life with a small fan for cooling.

My unit was also preserved in a basement for many years by the original owner. It only needed a few small electrolytics in the power board changed. That was it. The power supply filter caps are original. If you don't hear hum and the unit can be adjusted for DC offset and Bias according to specs, leave it alone.

Ventilation is a great idea. Make sure you get ventilation underneath too, very important!
 
Yamaha B-2,
Your percepion is remarkable. Personally I have found that seasoned professionals that I have been in coresponance with have a stong view that there is definately sonic differences between different manufacturers (terry Dewick) for example pointed out that the tear drop caps in my "76" Pioneer are very damaging to the audio path and pointed out that muse caps, although non polar, are an excepional replacement. Having done so, I have found that the music quality is greatly restored ~ not only for the view point that the caps are new ~ but that muse caps are particularly good in this application with low voltages, and do not harm the audio. The job, which I completed last night, I have enjoyed the fruits of all day. The smooth bass, the voice of each bass string, the high frenquencys ~ clear but not brassy or harsh, and very detailed ~ I can say having owned pioneer ss for years, have found this to be wonderfully refreshing. I look forward to using the ss preamp out to my mcintosh when i get off the road with it.
By the way ~ the people of my wing at my extended stay motel has a new found appreciation, I would think, of Van Morrison and Pat Methini. Terry also points out on the other hand that Bigphil is right that "designer caps" are not necessary. He has always recommended "Illinois caps" in my tube gear ~ very affordable ~ good quality.
He always recommendes using the highest capacitance value and voltage that space and wallet will accomodate for pwr supplys
 
How do you know when to recap a unit ? Is there an age when it should be automatic ?

It would be nice to have some really hard-assed empirical stuff on this subject, but perhaps the variables make it impossible. Each manufacturer does publish data, and you can find it on the spec sheets. Still, it may not help us with your question.

The core of the issue is that the wet paste that makes up the aluminium oxide dielectric compound tends to dry out over time. Heat that approaches or exceeds the design factor (e.g. 85 or 105 degrees) and time are commensurate factors in determining the life of the dielectric. In addition, as rulerboyz pointed out, inactivity is also a factor contributing to cap deterioration. Old caps can be "reformed" after inactivity, and a search will reveal some articles on how to do it. The process involves restoring the thickness of the dielectric layer by applying gradually increased voltage from an initially low pressure.

As for just the 'when' question: sorry — can't give you a reference ... but one opinion that I thought was authoritative when I read it said that in general caps begin to deteriorate after 5 to 6 years. I have also read a number of times (from various angles) that caps are perishables and have a shelf life. This makes even NOS selloffs less than ideal purchases.

Having said that, here is a story that echoes something of other comments you have just read: Three years ago on a visit to Canada, I dug out my 1970 AR integ. amp with the intention of packing it back to Japan. I cleaned it and took it to an old friend's home where we ran it in a shoot out against a recent model NAD. The speakers were sealed boxes that needed some power. Now, I half expected the AR to sputter, shriek and smoke. But we put on some big rock as a source and drove the living daylights out of both amps. OK, the NAD is no super high end machine, but I have owned one and I have a lot of respect for them. And this one was nearly new. On the other hand, the AR has run countless thousands of hours over 18 years, often hot as hell. Still, it ran an even race with the NAD, albeit with a tad more grain. (Amazing considering the developments in a number of areas.) And it had not even been powered up for almost ten years. I expected either the neighbours or the police to start beating on the door, but the old amp never faltered.

So what to say?: Lefty, YamahaB-2, rulerboyz, crooner and Braddog100 — all have given some advice. Some of it is even contradictory and yet all of it can be considered sound advice. This shows that the question is open to discretion.

To be sure, caps DO deteriorate over time. Bulging and leaking caps are a disaster waiting to happen. Old and tired caps in capacitor coupled amps are going to rob some sound. Optimum performance of ALL the components results in optimum sound. Take these things together and suit your pocketbook and predilection. For myself, I have decided that all my old gear could use recapping whenever I get around to it — including the old AR. And who knows? It may have a lot more to offer than when I last heard it. The shootout demonstrated that it was still great for hard rock, but I think it could play the baroque viola de gamba better at civilised volume if everything was freshened up. And there is only one way to find out :yes:
 
back to basics??

OK... a few basic points to summarize and clarify regarding selection of replacement caps... please correct me if I am mistaken on any of them..

1) In general, using a higher voltage rated replacement capacitor is a good idea.. (i.e. using a 50V instead of the original 35V capacitor)... provided that variations in physical package size (and possibly cost) do not create an issue.

2) Whenever possible use a replacement cap rated for higher ambient operating temperatures... i.e. 105C instead of 85C.

3) Lower ESR is always better

4) Generally speaking, all replacement caps must have the same capacitance value as the original.

Anyone disagree with the above points?

(EDIT: Note that I am thinking stricly within the context of "replacement", rather than "modding".)
 
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Point 4 was what I've still been left curious about. As whenever I look up various mods on the internet, such as for my Toshiba SD-4960, a lot of the capacitors are not just replaced, but also up-sized. This appears to be the case in vintage gear as well. Take for example one of EchoWars' earliest posts about upgrading the Kenwood KA-5500, he mentioned up-sizing a few of the caps there. Which goes back to my original question of when is it a good idea to increase the capacitance of capacitors when swapping them out?

This is, of course, in regards to electronics, not speakers, unless you intend to mess around with crossover frequencies.

- JP
 
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