Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods
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phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
It depends on what kind of fragrant compound they use but some can also be beneficial to cleaning (e.g. some terpenes). The quat preps also often contain dyes. Unfortunately, the nature of these included compounds is proprietary information. The good thing is that they are typically present in very small amounts and we are diluting 1000-fold or more. If you are looking for a commercial product, it's something you have to put up with, much like the people who use dish soaps or shampoo/conditioners. There are many suggestions for pure quats in this thread but they are difficult to find and work with. The best compromise is to find a commercial prep that minimizes dyes and perfumes.
EDIT: Please note I wasn't specifically recommending any of the commercial preparations I listed. I was merely pointing out that many manufacturers produce similar products. I would need to investigate each further before I could recommend them. To date, I've only tried the Hepastat and 3M's HB Quat.
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AvFan
Super Member
I found the MSDS for Virex II 256 and diluted at 256:1 the pH is 8.8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the dilution levels we are using these quat based products in record cleaning solutions the ultimate pH is not an issue. I suspect it is very close to neutral 7. Also, most of the Hepastat 256 replacements listed above have some kind of fragrance in them. Are there any problems created by the fragrance?
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
Yes, you are correct: when you dilute this stock 1000-fold, you approach more neutral pH. Also, in general, high pH is better than low when it comes to solutions coming in contact with our records. We want to avoid encouraging the dehydrochlorination reaction that is autocatalytic and occurs as vinyl ages and breaks down (producing HCl). That's why we avoid acidic additives like wood glue or the Jet dry mentioned above.
See post above regarding the fragrance. Most of these are fairly inert and at super low concentrations. If there is a citrus or pine scented one, these are typically terpenes and can aid in the cleaning process (though insignificant). Most get caught up in the detergent micelles. Your nose will be the most sensitive detection instrument: a cleaned LP should have no detectable smell after final rinses.
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AvFan
Super Member
I was able to buy 32oz of Virex II 256 from Amazon and for about $25 including shipping. I suspect this is a lifetime supply for record cleaning. We tried out the Hepastat 256 for household cleaning and it worked well so we'll also use the Virex II to clean bathrooms, floors, etc. 32 oz of that stuff will make 64 gallons of 256:1 cleaner! I'm also misting a very dilute (2000:1 or so) solution of Hepastat on my record brush before each play and on the turntable mat when I get some static. Seems to work well in this application too.
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
Let us know how the Virex works for you. Looks like between 10-20% quat in that concentrate.
In terms of household cleaning, the FDA banned a host of disinfectant ingredients last year (mostly used in antibacterial soaps) since they didn't do much good and they were deemed bad for the environment (and septic treatment plants). Interestingly, they withheld judgement on the quats we use and said they need more investigation as they seemed to be effective. Well duh, hospitals have been using them in place of bleach for years. My only caveat would be to not wash large amounts of them down the sink if you have a septic system at your house. You don't want to kill the bacteria in these systems that are essential for biodegradation of waste (in community sewer systems they are hugely diluted so not much of a problem). Instead, take the used solution from your US tank and wash down your driveway, roof, or sidewalk (it helps keep moss from growing and will break down with UV exposure to components microbes can process). Pool suppliers like HTH, Nava, and Kem-tek sell quat mixes as algaecide for pools and spas.
In terms of household cleaning, the FDA banned a host of disinfectant ingredients last year (mostly used in antibacterial soaps) since they didn't do much good and they were deemed bad for the environment (and septic treatment plants). Interestingly, they withheld judgement on the quats we use and said they need more investigation as they seemed to be effective. Well duh, hospitals have been using them in place of bleach for years. My only caveat would be to not wash large amounts of them down the sink if you have a septic system at your house. You don't want to kill the bacteria in these systems that are essential for biodegradation of waste (in community sewer systems they are hugely diluted so not much of a problem). Instead, take the used solution from your US tank and wash down your driveway, roof, or sidewalk (it helps keep moss from growing and will break down with UV exposure to components microbes can process). Pool suppliers like HTH, Nava, and Kem-tek sell quat mixes as algaecide for pools and spas.
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creamstoutz
New Member
Just wanted to update you all. I've made a cleaning solution using the pro force sanitizer and triton. Used it on a couple of records I cleaned with the triton alone that remained static prone. It works great! Seems to rinse well, no noticeable film or residue to the naked eye. The records play great with greatly reduced surface noise. I wouldn't say they are perfect, but much better. These are older, well played records.
For the 500 ml of solution I mixed:
1 ml of proforce
.5 ml of triton 100
25 ml of 99% ISO
Balance distilled h20.
Using a mkiii squeaky clean, I use triton, rub it in a few rotations, let it sit a few minutes. Follow up with two rinses of h20.
Seems to work really good!
Thanks Phantomrebel!
For the 500 ml of solution I mixed:
1 ml of proforce
.5 ml of triton 100
25 ml of 99% ISO
Balance distilled h20.
Using a mkiii squeaky clean, I use triton, rub it in a few rotations, let it sit a few minutes. Follow up with two rinses of h20.
Seems to work really good!
Thanks Phantomrebel!
wowflutter
New Member
Thanks for the reply. Dang, I can't even hardly remember my name before I've had my coffee!
Isn't the Triton100 recommended to be around .13% on the final solution? And the 10% Quat to be around .10%?
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
Yes, that is Ruston's recipe. I use similar for hand cleaning but found I can get by with less reagent in my ultrasonic bath and this makes rinsing easier. Your mix is a little low but it should work. That said, for optimal results I would start with adding 8x more of the surfactant stocks so you end up with 0.16% Triton and 0.016% quat and give it a try. The quat can be increased further if you are finding issues with static or the records are moldy. That way you are above the CMC of Triton and have enough quat to be effective. You won't get excessive foaming with this mix, it just is about how you rinse and dry. Some just spray and drip dry, others wipe, others put on an RCM. Since there are so many variables, I prefer ranges and hesitate to recommend exact concentrations. Complicating the issue is that commercial manufacturers provide wide concentrations ranges (sometimes 10-fold!) in their products for propriety so it is impossible to know exactly how much quat we have. It's best to experiment: wash, look, and listen. You want to use the minimal amount that cleans and rinses well, leaves no residue, and yields a record free of non-structural noise.
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AvFan
Super Member
I'm using a Squeaky Clean RCM and rinse twice after cleaning the record. I suspect that the first rinse (spray on distilled water and then apply with a paint pad) and subsequent vacuum get most, if not all, of the cleaning fluid off the record. When I spray on distilled water for the second rinse it beads up unlike the first rinse when the distilled spreads out across the record. So, do you think the second rinse is just insurance?
davelarz
Well-Known Member
Hoping this thread isn't dead! I recently got a US rig up and running and I'm getting great results, but I feel like the fumes from the cleaning solution are giving me headaches/making me feel woozy. I'm using Rushton's formula -
0.13% Tergitol S-15-3 and S-15-9 in a 50/50 proportion
0.10% Hepastat 256 (a 1:1000 dilution)
5.00% isopropyl alcohol (using 91% grade)
The room where I do my cleaning is small and not well ventilated - when I have the cleaner running and the lid off there's a pretty strong chemical smell in there. That said, I haven't thus far been doing marathon sessions - half-hour at a time in there at most. I've also wondered if my Chinese US machine (the Trusonik sold on eBay) is offgassing because the smell is far and away the strongest when the machine is running. So... just wondering if anyone can't give me any advice on this. I'm starting to feel a little paranoid because in general I feel like I haven't investigated the safety of these substances and I'm worried that I've been a little too cavalier.
0.13% Tergitol S-15-3 and S-15-9 in a 50/50 proportion
0.10% Hepastat 256 (a 1:1000 dilution)
5.00% isopropyl alcohol (using 91% grade)
The room where I do my cleaning is small and not well ventilated - when I have the cleaner running and the lid off there's a pretty strong chemical smell in there. That said, I haven't thus far been doing marathon sessions - half-hour at a time in there at most. I've also wondered if my Chinese US machine (the Trusonik sold on eBay) is offgassing because the smell is far and away the strongest when the machine is running. So... just wondering if anyone can't give me any advice on this. I'm starting to feel a little paranoid because in general I feel like I haven't investigated the safety of these substances and I'm worried that I've been a little too cavalier.
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
?? Triton has no smell. Hepastat concentrate has scent added, but you shouldn't smell much at 0.1% (The quats themselves have no odor and are definitely not volatile). The only volatile component is the IPA, but at 5%, I doubt you are smelling much and it's odor is distinct. My guess would be it is the US machine you are using. Chinese manufacturers use all kinds of noxious components. I can smell their rubber parts and oiled components from 20 ft away. They have no regulations there for off gassing, which is why we no longer import some of their products like plywood (though idiots like Lumber Liquidators occasionally do so). I'm actually convinced (and am not alone in this belief) that they put their industrial waste in products as a means of disposal. Do some research and you'll find some of the chemicals at high levels in Chinese products are known carcinogens, neurotoxins, endocrine disrupters, and renal toxins - many have been banned for use in the USA . There are efforts to prevent this toxic importation in some products ( for example see http://dynamics.org/Altenberg/CURRENT_AFFAIRS/CHINA_PLASTIC/)
You're not going to like this, but my recommendation would be to ditch the machine and get one made in the USA or Europe. You'll pay more, but what is your health worth?
Again, the detergents and quats have no odor. You are sensitive to something else in your cleaning environment.
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davelarz
Well-Known Member
Thanks for replying Phantom - I was suspecting as much myself. It's a very strong smell that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the detergents themselves. It is definitely giving me a terrible headache. I think I can still return the machine actually - was thinking about doing that anyway because it's having trouble getting to 35 degrees.
As a test, run the US machine with distilled water only, and see what aromas manifest. If nothing, try running it with distilled water and IPA, to see if the IPA is acting as a solvent for something related to the internals of the US machine.
I'm curious to know if the US machine could atomize the fluids being used.
I have obtained a 10% concentration to be further diluted at time of use. There is a bit of aroma at the 10% concentration. It would be hard for me to believe that at concentrations for US cleaners that even aroma would be a strong in any way.
Enjoy,
Rich P
I'm curious to know if the US machine could atomize the fluids being used.
I have obtained a 10% concentration to be further diluted at time of use. There is a bit of aroma at the 10% concentration. It would be hard for me to believe that at concentrations for US cleaners that even aroma would be a strong in any way.
Enjoy,
Rich P
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davelarz
Well-Known Member
I was wondering about the atomization myself Rich because yesterday I felt like I had a strange acrid taste in the back of my throat after a cleaning session. But I am pretty convinced it's the cleaner - I noticed the chemical smell when I unboxed and it gets very intense when the machine is running. The solution itself in the tank, when the machine is off, has no odor at all. I'm going to drain it today and run it with just distilled to see, although I've already initiated the return. AS I said, the heating function doesn't work at all. Looking into a Sonix IV - seems like a machine that many have had good luck with and it's not a crippling price (btw saw that someone was selling an Audiodesk in BT for a very good price...)
ripblade
Super Member
I noticed this as well. Peering in for a closer look it coated my eyeglasses in a thin fog. After that I started wearing a particle mask.
Don't know about the machine itself offgassing any more than any other piece of electrical equipment. Tergitol is used in latex paints and wax stripper, so if it smells anything like that then it's not the machine itself.
davelarz
Well-Known Member
Well my machine definitely had an unpleasant offgassing smell fro the moment I took it out, but I can't really say if it's the machine itself or the agitation of the solution that causes the acrid stench when it's running. Earlier response stated that the only thing in the solution that really smells is the IPA - then again something doesn't need to smell to be toxic when inhaled. That said, the solution doesn't seem to have much of an odor when stagnant and given the dilution of the detergents and the IPA, it was hard for me to imagine that it was causing the smell or my headaches. The smell is strong and unpleasant but isn't really the issue for me - I can deal with it. It's the headache and accompanying feeling of wooziness which occurs for me after very little exposure, which is not only unpleasant but seems really unhealthy. I am really sensitive to these types of allergic reactions and also struggle with headaches. What's more I don't have any other option in terms of the room I have my rig in (for more space or ventilation), so if it is the solution causing my problem (which I suppose is possible if there's atomization happening) I'm going to have to go to another solution. Bottom line - first thing I need to do is run the tank with just distilled water and see if I get the smell. BTW - I haven't yet drained my tank. Are there any safety/health issues I need to think about with disposing the solution (tergitols/hepastat/IPA diluted in distilled water)?
The LOC recommends goggles and a lab coat when mixing and using the cleaning fluid, and undiluted Tergitol is an eye and skin irritant. I don't see any reference to respirators. The isopropyl alcohol in these formulas is also an eye irritant and flammable as well.
It's worth being careful when mixing up these fluids, but I think that applies also to mixing up any kind of cleaning solution whether it's for records or bathroom floors. Anybody who's mixed bleach and ammonia can testify to the hazards there.
Here's a link to the MSDS for the Library of Congress Record Cleaning Fluid: http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/MSDSRecordcleaning.pdf
(This refers to the record cleaning fluid which contains less than 1% Tergitol).
HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
3.1 Emergency Overview Not applicable.
Health Rating: 0 – None
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 0 - None
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES; LAB COAT
Storage Color Code: Orange (General Storage)
3.2 Potential Health Effects
Water is non-hazardous.
Inhalation: Not applicable.
Ingestion: Not applicable.
Skin Contact: Not applicable.
Eye Contact: Not applicable.
Chronic Exposure: Not applicable.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions: Not applicable.
The biggest safety concern seems to be when using the undiluted Tergitol to make up a batch of cleaning fluid.
Basically don't drink it, don't bathe in it and don't get it in your eyes.
Here's the Safety Data Sheet for Tergitol 15-S-9.: http://www.gccgz.com/down/MSDS-e/15-S-9.pdf
3.2 POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS
Effects of Single Acute Overexposure
Inhalation Short-term harmful health effects are not expected from vapor generated at ambient temperature. Aerosol can be hazardous if inhaled.
Eye Contact Causes moderate to severe irritation, experienced as discomfort or pain, excess blinking and tear production, with marked excess redness and swelling of the conjunctiva. Corneal injury may occur.
Skin Contact Causes irritation with discomfort, local redness, and possible swelling. Prolonged contact may cause severe irritation, with local discomfort or pain, and local redness and swelling. Effects may be prolonged.
Skin Absorption Prolonged or widespread contact may result in the absorption of potentially harmful amounts of material.
Swallowing Moderately toxic. May cause irritation of the mouth and throat, abdominal discomfort, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.
Aspiration into the lungs may occur during ingestion or vomiting, resulting in lung injury.
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