Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

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You guys crack me up! :rflmao:
We’ve just had a ‘Unicorn’ craze here in the UK. Everyone and their neighbours went bananas over it and everything was about Unicorns! Bedding, Teapots, cups, saucers, wallpaper, pillows, folders, pencil toppers, cuddly toys etc....

Anyway, Unicorn tears are a bit acidic. For the ultimate clean, I myself use Mermaid juice to clean my records!

I really don't want to know how you juice or milk a mermaid.
 
Hi all,

I read about 95% of this thread, but sorry if I missed any of this and I'm asking for repeated info. I purchased a Squeaky Clean a while back and I'm looking to homebrew a good solution.

I am curious, is there any big advantage to using the hepastat over the pure behentrimonium from Making Cosmetics other than ease of mixing? The little packet of behentrimonium seems much easier to store. Same with the EDTA. Hepastat contains some EDTA correct? How does the quantity in the hepastat record cleaning formulations compare with the original Vince formula? ("Ultimate Wash Solution" is: Triton (0.5%), EDTA (5 mM), and Behentriammonium Chloride (0.05%) and, occasionally, 5% IPA.)

Pricewise, it seems to be a wash for initial purchase. I haven't done the math on quantities but suffice it to say, ordering either should give me enough record cleaning solution to last a looooong time.

On another note, I use a product called Folex for auto detailling, it's meant for carpet cleaning but they say it can be used to clean vinyl (I'm assuming they mean upholstery) and other hard surfaces as well. It's billed as a water based non-ionic surfectant cleaner with no fragrance or solvents:

http://www.folex.net/folex-facts/

I'm curious if it's using one of the Tritons or Tergitols, I can't imagine Folex has their own chemical formula. (If they do, kudos to them, it's great stuff for carpet). In any case, if we could figure out it's concentration and specific surfectant I think it could be a good locally available option to satiate the dawn crowd. Folex + Hepastat (Or that one from sams club) could be the "Easy to get" version so to speak.

Or it could be no good. I don't know. But I'd like to hear one of the chemists weigh in on the subject. :)

Cheers,
Nathan
 
Hi Nathan. A 1:1000 dilution of Hepastat 256 is about 0.08mM EDTA, 0.006% non-ionic detergent, 0.0028% Ethanol, and 0.02% quat surfactants (none are Behentriammonium). So while this mix contains a useful amount of quat, the other components (non-ionic detergent, alcohol, and EDTA) are minimal. This is why we often mix it in with our normal detergent wash solution.
In terms of Behentriammonium reagents, we try to shy away from the beauty shop supply as these are not pure (usually only 70%) and the remaining components can cause precipitates (which can deposit on records). So if you use this, try to find laboratory grade or use in large dilution.
The Folex is interesting, but without any info (the MSDS is vague), there is no way to know what is in it and what concentration to use it at. Hence, I'd avoid it.
 
To those wondering about the new formula, I'm sorry it is taking so long but you may not realize what it takes to properly test such things. We have spent weeks of outside lab time (yet to be billed) and are already over $10K in labor and material costs. I've also had to purchase new equipment, including a very sensitive charge analyzer to measure static (my old surface voltmeter just wouldn't do anymore) and time on a GC-MS is hard to come by without spending a fortune. While everything is looking good so far, I would estimate that we have at least another 3 months of experiments before we thoroughly dial it in and come to useful conclusions. While there are commercial interests involved, I'm doing this purely for fun and feel no need to rush.
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How about this product I use at my restaurant for getting rid of grease and other tough stains, Grease Gobbler ( http://www.emulso.com/product/grease-gobbler/ ).

I recently used it in its ratio of 50/50 we mix for work to clean a stubborn stylus that had crud 10 cleanings with Stylast could not remove. One application of the 50/50 Grease gobbler
removed it 100% !!! I have tried a mix of that with some Distilled water and De natured alcohol and about 10% Grease gobbler for a really dirty record. It worked well but I have no way of telling if it had any adverse affects to the record. It worked better than some record doctor cleaner I have been using.

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-tech.pdf

http://www.emulso.com/data-sheets/grease-gobbler-safety.pdf

But As a stylus cleaner I am sticking with it when I find a used cartridge/stylus with massive gunk on it.



Athanasios
 
Hi Nathan. A 1:1000 dilution of Hepastat 256 is about 0.08mM EDTA, 0.006% non-ionic detergent, 0.0028% Ethanol, and 0.02% quat surfactants (none are Behentriammonium). So while this mix contains a useful amount of quat, the other components (non-ionic detergent, alcohol, and EDTA) are minimal. This is why we often mix it in with our normal detergent wash solution.
In terms of Behentriammonium reagents, we try to shy away from the beauty shop supply as these are not pure (usually only 70%) and the remaining components can cause precipitates (which can deposit on records). So if you use this, try to find laboratory grade or use in large dilution.
The Folex is interesting, but without any info (the MSDS is vague), there is no way to know what is in it and what concentration to use it at. Hence, I'd avoid it.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Any comments on the efficacy of the quats in the hepastat vs the Behentriammonium if you were able to get ahold of it in a pure form?

The cosmetics maker claims "79-80% active substances" so I guess your right about it not being pure. I'd wonder if that 20% has any effect at the super low concentrations we're dealing with.

Ghost edit: I just logged up the making cosmetics actual website (not just the Amazon page) and the Behentrimonium SDS and certificate of analysis show the only other ingredient as isopropyl alcohol. The EDTA is listed as 100% pure. Is the issue a grading standard (as in we can't trust those statements) or am I missing something? The EDTA seems perfectly usable at least. The certificate of analysis shows 99% pure.

I'll agree that the folex sds is frustratingly useless.

Cheers,
Nathan
 
Dear Dr. Phantomrebel,

When I saw this thread show up yesterday, I held my breath, hoping you’d made a statement. Well, you did. I’m not sure what to make of it yet. I now know you’ve put a lot of effort, time, and, apparently, money into this new formula. Will this be a commercial venture? Or will you be offering it freely to us hobbiests? That seems unfair to you.

I would like to thank you, though, for your tremendously valuable input. You’ve certainly upped record-cleaning effectiveness. Whatever you do, I’m with you.
 
Hi Alan. I am not a business person and am merely testing a formulation of ingredients that anyone can obtain and I will certainly let my fellow hobbyist know how to make it. The commercial entity is merely interested in my results, so that they can presumably market their own formulation based on the raw ingredients. Though they are contributing to the effort, my agreement with them allows for this.
Unfortunately tragedy has struck my family as discussed in this thread (http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ula-ventura-ca-in-your-thoughts.799530/page-4) and my life, along with all my work interests, is on hold. While nobody in my family was injured (all now safely evacuated), I need to assess the condition of both my and my parents home to know what the next steps are. I will be arriving there tomorrow, but I might not be actually able to get into the properties for days to figure out what is going on (we just went through this with the fire, and this is worse). Long story short, these experiments have been shelved for an unknown period of time.
 
Santa Barbara just can't get a break, first fires and now mudslides. My cousin live up there as well. I believe she and her family were also evacuated at some point in the last few weeks.
 
Paging @phantomrebel

A Triton/Hepastat/IPA mix, such that it is to be mixed with distilled water at a 1:10 ratio for use...how stable would such a mix be?

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
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Probably pretty dang stable. I'm planning to mix mine to something like a 1:64 concentrate to get even better stability. At that ratio the hepastat level should be high enough to prevent most problems.

phantomrebel-I know you're going through some shit right now, but when you have time I'd be curious to hear your take on Paul Rigby's comments re:Isopropyl in record cleaning solutions. He claims that any iso at all is bad period. I'm splitting my order with my dad and he's requested for his to be alcohol free (aside from the trace amounts in the hepastat) because of this. I had planned to go ahead and use the Behentrimonium from Making Cosmetics after reading it's SDS sheet, but chose the hepastat for it's lower alcohol percentage (The Making Cosmetics Behentrimonium is 80% behentrimonium, 20% iso).

https://thevinylfactory.com/features/8-easy-and-affordable-ways-to-clean-your-vinyl-records-by-hand/

Cheers,
Nathan
 
A Triton/Hepastat/IPA mix, such that it is to be mixed with distilled water at a 1:10 ratio for use...how stable would such a mix be?

Enjoy,
Rich P


I bottled up some last year in a half pint canning jar, no "growth" in that jar in this past year.
 
So, I ordered the wrong EDTA (Disodium. Derp.) So while I'm waiting on that, I'm working on my concentrate using just the Hepastat and Triton X-100

Using Rushton's formula and tweaking it a bit for the measurement devices I have and the fact that I don't want to use alcohol at this point, here's what I have. I'm using this by hand so, I have a couple of questions (after the maths!).

Solution Concentrate:
Hepastat: 30 mL
Triton: 40 mL
Water: 50 mL
Total: 120 mL

Concentrate By Percentage:
Hepastat: 25%
Triton: 33.3333%

Wash Solution
Concentrate Used: 30 mL
Hepastat 256 Content: 7.5 mL
Triton Content: 10 mL
Water: 3785.41 mL (1 Gal)
Total: 3815.41 mL

Wash Solution by Percentage:
Hepastat (%): 0.197%
Triton (%): 0.262%

Wash Solution by Ratio:
Hepastat 508.7213
Triton 381.541

Now, I read earlier in the thread that a .5% solution was desirable for hand washing, and I also read that using the above (doubling Rushton's formula) for hand washing is good. Which are we considering the ideal solution at this point? For hand cleaning, if I wanted to try .5% Triton, would I need to halve the amount of Hepastat (To keep it at ~500:1)?

Cheers,
Nathan
 
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Pretty great wet out!
 
Use soft tooth brush with needle-like hair tips + pure water.
Spread pure water on the surface using left index finger evenly.
Not too much and not too dry too.
Then turn on the 45 rpm.
Touch the brush gently and do not try to brush it.
Just gently touch the surface whilst it spins 45 rpm speed.
Try to touch the surface from outerside to center until all grooves done.
I can clean dirty LPs with molds on them, mostly satisfied.
Of course if the vinyl has already been imprinted with stuborn crusty dirt build-ups, crackles will still be there.
But i can hear crackles were reduced to some point.
Repeat several times if you are not satisfied with the result until it's ok.
Wipe the wet surface with dampened soft spongy-like cloth called kanebo.
For the super dirty vinyl you can use dish washer solution for starter but then you must clean it using pure water repeatedly.
If the dirtiness scale is mild, just use pure water would do.
 
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