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Record cleaning- you're doing it wrong!

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by guest110, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. pustelniakr

    pustelniakr Silver Miner at Large Staff Member Super Mod Moderator Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,659
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Moderation Note:

    New folks to this thread, please read through this entire thread and see what it is about. This thread is not about general actions to clean vinyl. Rather is is about squeezing the last tiny bit out of the process and results. For general vinyl cleaning methods (dish soap, etc), please search for a more appropriate thread, or start your own. I will enforce this, if necessary.


    Please stay on the specific topic of this thread.

    Rich P
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    bhaskarcan and NOPSI like this.

     

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  2. muncybob

    muncybob New Member

    Messages:
    23
    While I agree that a general cleaning with a non abrasive brush and some sort of cleaning fluid as described can be of benefit, taking the next step as described in this thread with as described fluids and ultrasonic equipment has taken my records to another level. I thought my records were fairly clean but I was amazed at the stuff in the bottom of my US tank after most cleaning sessions.
    Being able to clean several records at a time in less than 20 minutes also has benefits to me. Just finished all my current collection(245+) and into MoFi sleeves so I'm good for awhile but I am looking forward to the new & improved fluid formula previously mentioned.
     
    ETLS likes this.
  3. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    My correct EDTA came in today. I'll be curious to add it to the formula and see if I notice any difference.

    I haven't had any trouble mixing the Triton so far. I'm starting out with no alcohol.
     
    pustelniakr likes this.
  4. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    I've put together a formulation spreadsheet with the most popular ingredients (triton, hep, edta, alcohol) and thought you guys might like it. I've created stock versions with two formulation strategies.

    Note, i'm using the edta molar mass from Making Cosmetics at 416g/mol. I've seen other quotes at 380g or so but the 416g matches that of the CAS number specced on a few different sites. Can any of the chemists comment on this?

    1. No alcohol. Just enough extra water added to the concentrate to make measurement easy. 2 tbsp or 30 ml per gallon of water yields approximately .26% Triton, .2% hepastat, and 5mM EDTA. 8 ml to 1L water yields nearly but not exactly the same, but is the closest round ml.

    2. 5% Alcohol. For simplicity, take 1L alcohol amd discard 75 ml. Add cleaning chemicals in amounts shown. This makes 1L of concentrate. This is a higher volume mix, so throw out 60 ml from 1 liter of water and replace with alcohol solution. This yields 5% iso, .24% triton, and .21% hepastat. For a gallon do the same but discard and replace 225 ml. The idea with throwing out the extra volume of water/alcohol is to be able to use the existing container for storage and mixing. This isn't necessary for the small volumes added using method 1.

    The sheet is also "programmed" so that if you want to replace the water in the concentrate with a small amount of iso and add the iso separately you can do that. I didn't make anything super automatic as far as getting to the desired concentration, I wanted to be able to fiddle with the numbers manually to see what I could come up with using easily measured quantities even if the amounts aren't exactly perfect in the final solution.

    The exact ratios on these two mixes is not identical, I fudged them to make the concentrates easy to measure out. Shouldn't be noticeable in practice.

    Link to spreadsheets below:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4ohxieumi08sbuz/AACOWoVXwIclAOOhO__lTTb1a?dl=0

    There's one sheet for each recipe for making up 1 gallon and 1L of solution, so four sheets total. Green are inputs, yellow are calculated outputs. Feel free to tweak the numbers to get the final solution you want!

    Cheers
    Nathan
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  5. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

    Messages:
    2,611
    Location:
    Toronto
    Thanks, Nathan! Unfortunately, not Excel compatible. What program are you using to open it?
     
  6. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    Uh, I made it in Excel. :confused:

    What version of Excel do you have? I can try saving it as an older file version.
     

     

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  7. caseyjames

    caseyjames AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    So, in comparison to Rushton's formula (.13% Triton / .10% Hepastat / 5% Iso), how do you find the results?
     
  8. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

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    Location:
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    Excel97...:oops:
     
  9. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    3,280
    I made it in 2016. Let me make a downgraded version.

    @caseyjames - this is based on Rushton's formula, aside from the EDTA which I got from Vince. Rushton's formula is based on use of an ultrasonic cleaner and he recommended doubling the concentration for hand cleaning and vacuum machines. I'm using a Squeaky Clean so that doubled formula was my target. To go back to his formula, simply halve the concentrations or the amount of concentrate put into the final solution.
     
  10. caseyjames

    caseyjames AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Portland, ME
    Ooooooh, I missed the USC vs. hand-washing part of that.

    I use an USC cleaner and Rushton's formula with great results, so I'd assume people using your formula for handwashing/RCM cleaning will be pleased.
     
  11. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    I don't even think I deserve the credit of calling it my formula. It's just Rushton's/Phantom Rebel's Triton/Hepastat mix plus Vince's EDTA recommendation in ratios fudged to ease measurement with standard household tools. :)

    I kept the alcohol at 5% because I'm wary of alcohol personally and 10% sounded like a lot.

    The EDTA helps pick up any metal salts that may get on the vinyl from a tap water initial rinse and should help break up any left by sweaty fingerprints or previous less scrupulous washing techniques. It's cheap insurance, if not entirely necessary. I read a few posters saying it made a big difference for them so I ordered some.

    Cheers
    Nathan
     

     

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  12. GPJeff

    GPJeff Super Member

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    Nate,
    I may have missed it in the big thread. Where can you buy the EDTA? Llink?
    thanks
     
  13. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
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  14. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    @ripblade Here's a link with .xls files in addition to the .xlsx. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4ohxieumi08sbuz/AACOWoVXwIclAOOhO__lTTb1a?dl=0

    I took the molarity of the EDTA down to ~2.5mM as I found that in my no-alcohol concentrate the volume of EDTA to mix in was quite high. With the ratio I was using, it didn't fully dissolve until I added the hepastat. YMMV and feel free to tweak. I think the batch I made last night ended up somewhere around 3mM.

    Cheers,
    Nathan
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  15. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

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    Location:
    Toronto
    Thanks, Nate! I'll look it over for any questions...:)
     
  16. NOPSI

    NOPSI New Member

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    18
    Location:
    New Orleans area
    Is that tablespoons or teaspoons? 2 tablespoons = 30ml
     

     

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  17. ripblade

    ripblade Super Member

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    Thanks, Nate! I'll look it over for any questions...:)
     
  18. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    Good catch, that should have been 30ml. Fixed.

    I used this mix to clean my latest purchase, and it played fantastic right off the vacuum machine.
     
    ~librarian likes this.
  19. Gridslayer

    Gridslayer This and that... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,134
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Mixing the Triton that had tuned to a gel with alcohol did NOT remedy the problem...
     
  20. EngineerNate

    EngineerNate AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,280
    Try soaking the bottle in warm--hot water to soften it.
     

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