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Record cleaning- you're doing it wrong!

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by guest110, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. theophile

    theophile Pheasant Plucker. Subscriber

    I warned about this phenomenon here at AK over 10 years ago. Unless one has an item they want permanently stuck to shelf liner, it is best avoided.
     
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  2. ETLS

    ETLS metacarpophalangealcranium Subscriber

    Messages:
    13,010
    Location:
    Texas
    Same experience I had with the electrical cover and foam protector.

    The dent pullers did a good job, but were cumbersome, and more a pita than anything else.


    This solved that problem for me.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. jmilanski

    jmilanski New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Help everyone!
    I'm trying to go by weight rather than volume (since I have a $10 digital scale, and no cylinders or pipets).

    5% IPA 99% (50mL=39.3g, density 0.786 g/mL)
    0.5% Triton X-100 (5mL=5.3g, density 1.061 g/mL)
    0.05% quat (.5mL=.45g, density 0.9g/mL, but only 80% pure so 0.56g quat, the rest 0.12g is alcohol I think)
    EDTA (3.4mM=1g=1.1mL, density 0.9g/mL)
    94% deionized water (943.4mL=943.4g, density 1g/mL)

    Does the math work for 1-L of cleaning solution? Am I in the ballpark?
     
  4. doodahman

    doodahman New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Louisiana
    This raises something I've been curious about... what do you all typically use to measure out these chemicals/solutions? There are references throughout about using pipettes ... and some folks mentioned throwing the pipette away after a single use.

    Are there other convenient yet accurate ways (without contaminating)?

    What about reuse? (Dishwasher or boiling with a good rinse? I assume dishwasher would leave residue...)

    Thanks!

    (And... YEA, I finally finished reading the whole thread!)
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
    ETLS likes this.
  5. jmilanski

    jmilanski New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Like doodahman said

    For me, it is a lot easier to put a 1-L container (pyrex) on a $10 digital scale (below), clean it with IPA, and just add ingredients.
    https://www.amazon.com/AMIR-Back-Li...pID=41QZcIegWFL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

    Processing for making 1-L cleaning solution
    1. Pre-rinse 1-L glassware with IPA, boil deionized water
    2. Start with IPA (5% solution, 50ml, 39.3g) — TOTAL 39.3g
    3. add Triton X-100 (0.5% solution, 5ml, 5.3g) — TOTAL 44.6g
    4. add hot deionized water (94% solution, 943.4ml, 943.4g) — TOTAL 988.0g
    5. add Quat (0.05% solution, 0.5ml, 0.45g, 0.56g of 80% pure) — TOTAL 988.56g
    6. add EDTA (3.4mM, 1g) — TOTAL 989.56g

    I do this fresh, each time I want to sit down and clean a bunch of records.
    (Although I'm still not sure I have the volume->weights quite right. Any help there? Thanks!)
     
  6. DaveAl

    DaveAl Member

    Messages:
    92
    I have a package of 100 disposable pipettes that I bought at Amazon real cheap
     

     

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  7. ETLS

    ETLS metacarpophalangealcranium Subscriber

    Messages:
    13,010
    Location:
    Texas
    Just stop by a pharmacy, talk to the pharmacist and tell them you're blending a record cleaning solution, and need something that will accurately measure very small dosage. They have disposable non-needle syringes they'll give you for free. Get a couple.

    You're welcome.
     
    91r100gs and doodahman like this.
  8. DaveAl

    DaveAl Member

    Messages:
    92
    What is a low-cost product to reduce static and does that leave any residue after a double rinse, and if it doesn't (leave a residue), how does it work at reducing static after being rinsed?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  9. pustelniakr

    pustelniakr Silver Miner at Large Staff Member Super Mod Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,396
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Any product in your solution that has a polar quality will leave a molecular layer behind, this layer is not removable with a water rinse, and does not really qualify as a residue. It is just the way things work at that level. The molecular layer of the quat will put a different polarity on the record surface, resulting in your anti-static characteristic. I'm not a chemist, and my terminology may be a bit off, but the principle stands.

    Enjoy,
    Rich P
     
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  10. AlexA6404

    AlexA6404 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    What is the maximum safe temperature for cleaning records? I use enzyme as well as the US solution at 35'C, but, I have read some people use 45'C. I would think that the higher the temp, the better cleaning results as long as the temp does not damage records.
    Also, I have been cleaning my records very thoroughly following Rushton method. Yet, after playing one side of a cleaned record, I still see a dust-ball on the stylus. I assume this is airborne dust that sits on the record while it is being played. Are there any suggestions for minimizing airborne dust in the music room? eg. do ionic air purifiers (such as Ionic breeze) help?
     
  11. VYNULADIKT

    VYNULADIKT AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa
    So, I mixed up the recipe and cleaned a couple records. Great success, other than a little crackle in the ending dead wax. Probably need a little more care on the center area for both rinsing and scrubbing. I don't currently have label protectors.
    BUT, on another note, here is what I found after the cleaning. About an hour passed. I didn't disassemble the syringe after measuring the triton, only rinsed it with the alcohol as I measured it. Assuming a reaction with the seal swelled it and created too much pressure for the plastic. Not sure what the seal is made of but it doesn't like either the alcohol or the triton. Any thoughts?
    IMG_1582.JPG IMG_1583.JPG IMG_1584.JPG
     

     

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  12. VYNULADIKT

    VYNULADIKT AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa
    By the way the Emerson, Lake and Palmer album "Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends" has never sounded better. This because it is one of my very oldest and I didn't have a good a good system back when it was CLEAN the first time around. It was really bad, like an old AM radio on a distant station before cleaning.
    Can't wait to revive some of my other classics that I rarely play because they are so noisy.
     
  13. DaveAl

    DaveAl Member

    Messages:
    92
    Yes, get yourself some disposable pipettes from Amazon. They are dirt cheap
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  14. 808_state

    808_state Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    566
    One thing I've noticed with the combo of scrub/ultrasonic/rinse-vacuum is that in some cases a record needs a playback or two to sound its best. There may be some (very miniscule) loosened bits still clinging for life and only the pressure of the diamond can dislodge them. The one's that don't are simply toast.
     
  15. nrenter

    nrenter Active Member

    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Flower Mound, Texas
    Can we revisit the Finish Jet-Dry debate? I’ve always wondered how some Jet-Dry would affect the performance of a Klaudio ultrasonic machine. In theory, it seems like a simple (and ideal) additive. Borrowed from another site (interjected with my own commentary)…

    Finish Jet-Dry rinse aid has a bunch of stuff in it, but it isn’t complicated, really. Here’s a rundown of the contents:
    • Water is necessary to dissolve all the other stuff.
    • Alcohol ethoxylate is a nonionic (uncharged) surfactant that helps the water slide off your dishes better and thus helps them dry faster. For record cleaning, this sounds like a good thing.
    • Sodium polycarboxylate is an anti-redeposition polymer that wraps itself around the crud that the dishwasher just washed off so that the bits don’t get stuck again on your dishes. For a ultrasonic machine like a Klaudio (which dried the LP with a fan), this also sounds like a good thing.
    • Citric acid, which RB (the company that makes Jet-Dry) calls a complexing / sequestering agent, is really good at grabbing calcium ions out of hard water. Calcium can bind with surfactants and keep them from cleaning and rinsing dishes, so citric acid acts as kind of a sacrificial lamb to keep calcium from interfering. Since we're generally using distilled water, this issue should be minimal.
    • Sodium cumene sulfonate is another surfactant but with an electric charge, so it’s a bit better at breaking water’s surface tension on your dishes than alcohol ethoxylate, but it’s also more foamy. Foam is bad in a rinse aid (and, for a ultrasonic machine like a Klaudio), so that’s why such products use both kinds of surfactant.
    • Tetrasodium EDTA is a chelating agent. EDTA is short for ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid. It’s this funky-looking molecule that wraps its four arms around dissolved minerals in the water (such as calcium). The word chelate comes from the Greek word for “claw,” so you can imagine this molecule sinking its claws into minerals and whisking them away, similar to what citric acid does. Again, this seems like a good additive.
    • Methylisothiazolinone and methylchloroisothiazolinone (aka MI and MCI) are both preservatives, meaning they keep bacteria from growing in your bottle of rinse aid. Both are capable of causing skin allergies and are sensitizers, meaning that if you’re exposed to them over and over again, you can develop an allergy. But since rinse aid doesn’t sit on your skin and washes away completely from your dishes, I wouldn’t worry about it here.
    • CI Acid Blue 9 is dye. It makes the rinse aid blue. Why does it need to be blue? I have no idea, although colored solutions are easier to see in that little rinse-aid compartment.
    Now, I know there's been some concern about the acidity of Finish Jet Dry, but according to the SDS, the pH is 2.8 to 3.2 [Conc. (% w/w): 100%], so at at 1000:1 dilution ratio, the pH would approach (but not reach) 7. Correct?

    Well...someone had to try it. But what's a repeatable test? I'm not saying the following is definitive (or even valid), but here's what I've done and my very, very early conclusions...

    I've noticed that the Klaudio's KD-CLN-LP200 isn't very good at removing fingerprints from an LP, so I pulled out my Hi-Fi News Analog Test LP, wiped the side of my nose, and put a greasy fingerprint on the blank area between tracks 5 and 6 on Side 1.

    To cut to the chase, after a 5-minute clean cycle with a 1000:1 dilution ratio (1 ml Finish Jet-Dry to 1 liter of distilled water), the fingerprint was completely gone. Distilled water alone will *not* remove the greasy finger print. An approximate 2000:1 dilution ratio wouldn't *completely* remove the fingerprint. I think an approximate 1500:1 to 1200:1 dilution ratio *could* do it, but 1000:1 is easier to mix (three 1/4 teaspoons per gallon of distilled water which is 1024:1).

    Now, I'm not a chemist...so I'm throwing this out there for someone far smarter than I to comment. Thoughts?
     
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  16. jbailey930

    jbailey930 AK Member Subscriber

    Messages:
    820
    Location:
    N. Va
    have you read the thread from the beginning? using the supplied experience and testing from guest110, I've had the best sounding 40+ year old vinyl i could imagine.
     
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  17. 91r100gs

    91r100gs Lunatic Member

    Messages:
    15,698
    Location:
    KC area
    Triton, Hepastat, and IPA for the win. This formulation that @ETLS turned me on to is all I need. Rinse with my homemade 1 PPM TDS distilled water for the win.
    Thanks Robert
     
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  18. nrenter

    nrenter Active Member

    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Flower Mound, Texas
    @jbailey930,

    Yes, I actually did read this thread from the beginning.

    The quote from @guest110 that jumped out at me was, "Whoa, Jetdri is mostly Citric Acid and has a pH of 1." This could be interpreted as "Finish Jet-Dry has a pH of 1" or "Citric Acid has a pH of 1". It's the fear of using an acid-based solution with a pH of 1 (and concern about etching) that caused concern.

    According to the referenced SDS, Finish Jet-Dry as a pH of 2.8 to 3.2 [Conc. (% w/w): 100%], so @guest110 must have been referring to the pH of a specified concentration of citric acid. A 1000:1 dilution ratio of Jet-Dry helps as well. Also, I haven't seen a breakdown of the contents of Finish Jet-Dry. Hence why I'm bringing it back up.

    Maybe I missed something...completely plausible when perusing 1,677 posts. :)
     
    NOPSI likes this.
  19. Firstly, a 1:1000 dilution of a pH 2.8 solution results in a pH 5.8 solution, still acidic (citric acid solutions have buffering capacity, it's triprotic with pKa1 = 3.13. pKa2 = 4.76. pKa3 = 6.4....you'd have a hard time getting to 7 diluting with pure water). Secondly, effective ingredients are also diluted 1000-fold so you end up with very low concentrations of some of the secondary beneficial chemicals you listed. Thirdly, and most important, is that the Jet Dry mix, particularly at low pH, is loaded with anionics. One of the central hypotheses presented early in this thread is that anionics contribute to issues with static charge. Finally, there may be more ingredients in Jet dry than they list (see https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18001414), many with unknown interactions with vinyl records. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are testing it, but it should be compared to cleaning solutions of pure ingredients in a scientific way to understand whether it brings anything to the table. Despite the charge concerns, the inclusion of a hydrotrope like NaCS to a detergent mix could prove to be advantageous (BTW, it reduces foaming, not increases as your previous post suggests).
     
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  20. nrenter

    nrenter Active Member

    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    Flower Mound, Texas
    @phantomrebel, you rock! I guess it's time to mix up a batch of solution based on best-practices listed in this thread.
     

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