"Refurbished" vintage - What's it worth to ya?

[phidauex]

Here's a question...

Recently we've been seeing lots and lots more vintage gear on the auction sites and elsewhere, and a consequent rise in prices at thrift shops and garage sales. However, even though the amount of riff-raff has increased, there are still people looking for the best gear possible, not just something that 'basically works'.

I've seen several pieces of gear sell recently that were 'refurbished'. IE, electrolytic caps replaced, bulbs replaced, fully cleaned and polished, given a full check, bias and offset adjusted, etc. These units sold for a LOT more than their 'straight from the yard sale' breatheren.

How much is that service worth to YOU? If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service?

peace,
sam

 

[zosoisme]

Here's a question...

Recently we've been seeing lots and lots more vintage gear on the auction sites and elsewhere, and a consequent rise in prices at thrift shops and garage sales. However, even though the amount of riff-raff has increased, there are still people looking for the best gear possible, not just something that 'basically works'.

I've seen several pieces of gear sell recently that were 'refurbished'. IE, electrolytic caps replaced, bulbs replaced, fully cleaned and polished, given a full check, bias and offset adjusted, etc. These units sold for a LOT more than their 'straight from the yard sale' breatheren.

How much is that service worth to YOU? If you've got a choice between a thrift store find that 'lights up when plugged in', and one that has had a full professional servicing before the sale, how much more would you pay for the one that has had the full service?

peace,
sam

sam, I've bought equipment both ways, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut the "just serviced" items really depend ( to me anyway) on who did them..... I've asked if they have receipts/invoices and such for this work....sometimes yes, sometimes lots of stammerin' and stutterin'... just gotta feel through, but if the works been done "right" and verified, that's cool and i will and have pay the longer dollar there....

 

[tom1356]

These are two different customers. Some want to and are able to do the work themselves. Others can't or wont do the work. I seldom see a restoration that really pays off for the restorer. A lot of money and work goes into a proper restoration.
In my opinion a well restored piece is usually a bargain.
I'm in the process of restoring a pair of Mcintosh MC30's. I will never recoup the restoration costs plus my time on resale, and the MC30's are very simple amps.
Wait...why am I doing this again...?

 

[vintagestereo]

I prefer only to buy units that have been restored by a Certified Tech, with documentation to prove it. Anything less is RISKY!

I AVOID units that have been messed with by grifters.

I have my Tech evaluate every piece I buy to determine its electronic status. If it has been "misrepresented"....there will be *$&@ to pay! :nono:

 

[gamalot]

I think it is a waste of time and money unless you plan to keep the unit for your own personal use.

You will seldom be rewarded for your time and efforts and the few would be willing to pay the price.

Typically a G 8000 goes for around $300. Send it out to a good tech and spend a couple hundred more getting it really "Refurbished".
Then try to sell it and you will have members from here PMing you with offers of $250.

Ask any of our local techs what they charge to rebuild driver boards, recap and replace trim pots and transistors and then bench test it under full load, the cost gets up there quite fast.

I would reserve the "Refurbishing" for units you like and plan to keep for your own peace of mind.

Gary

 

[Mark W.]

It's a matter of scale for me. Sure I would like to buy only completely restored perfectly working units. But then it would be a very long time inbetween purchases. I prefer to buy working now units that when and as I can afford I would have tuned up or if warrented completely reburbished. In my system I will most likely have my Amp Pioneer SA-9100 and Tuner TX-9100 completely restored while other units I'll have more minor work done. That way I can enjoy the unit for now and when I can afford it have it worked on. There by splitting the cost of a refurbished unit.

So for me the deal/price is very important

 

[fabvsix]

I just had EchoWars completely "overhaul" my beloved Sansui G9000 ! I paid top dollar and plan on keeping it for years to come....

 

[phidauex]

Well, here is an example, a forum member recently recapped their Kenwood KA-9100, and then ended up needing to sell it (though that wasn't his original intent). It ended up fetching quite a bit more on ebay than normal KA-9100s, even though it wasn't done by a 'certified tech'.

Now, I'm not planning on just recapping everything before I sell it or anything, but I do have some gear that I've done significant repairs and upgrades on, and I'm curious how that changes the value in some people's minds.. Of course, you'd have to pry my upgraded Phase Linear out of my cold dead hands, so the point is moot, it just makes me curious.

How many of these brands still have 'certified techs' who know the vintage gear?

peace,
sam

 

[hpsenicka]

"Keepers" are likely worthy of investment in restoration/rejuvenation.

However... I think I would prefer to acquire a stock working unit, and make my own decisions regarding restoration/rejuvenation rather than trusting work of unknown or unverifiable origin.

For me, part of the satisfaction is experiencing the transformation of an ordinary sounding piece of gear into something special.

Most AKer's are well aware that not all techs have the same high standards of workmanship.

 

[phidauex]

For me, part of the satisfaction is experiencing the transformation of an ordinary sounding piece of gear into something special.

Most AKer's are well aware that not all techs have the same high standards of workmanship.

Do you think the "I'd rather do it myself" attitude is one unique to AKers and those like us? Are we in the minority? Are there people who pine for vintage gear, but expect it to work perfectly out of the box so they don't have to worry about it?

As to the standards of workmanship.. You are definately correct. I try to emulate EchoWars, but I can only get so far! Even his perf-board hacks look great.

peace,
sam

 

[fabvsix]

Could you accomplish this on your own?



The receiver clipped at 208WPC @ 0.5% THD. At the rated 160WPC, THD+N measured 0.0065%, which is way the hell down there. That figure is feeding the signal through the preamp also...no cheating by feeding only the amp. Not too shabby... J

 

[Holst]

I've bought new, bought used, bought used and bought "Refurbished". There are up sides to all of them. My best popular auction site "score" was a McIntosh amp that I got for a great price, great communication and arrived packed well enough for a landing on Mars. It's a keeper.
The pre-amp I bought from the same site at the same time proved not to be. Neither did the tuner.
So for the keeper pre I went last summer to Tom and Terry at mcintoshaudio.com, yes I shelled out 650 bucks for a over 25 preamp, but the damn thing is still under warrenty. My take was that at the price it cost less than most new pre's and was a far better unit than any of them.

 

[hpsenicka]

Do you think the "I'd rather do it myself" attitude is one unique to AKers and those like us? Are we in the minority? Are there people who pine for vintage gear, but expect it to work perfectly out of the box so they don't have to worry about it?

As to the standards of workmanship.. You are definately correct. I try to emulate EchoWars, but I can only get so far! Even his perf-board hacks look great.

peace,
sam

Sorry.. I didn't meant to imply that I intended to do the actual work myself... only that I would prefer to have control over the process.

I want to be able to consult with a technician that I respect and trust, and have a discussion about what work is required, which of the available mods may be worthwhile/affordable, etc.

My own technical skills don't go much deeper than cleaning controls with DeoxIT, reading a DVM, and maybe adjusting DC offset.

 

[gamalot]

Any one who is foolish enough to think they can go out and buy a 25 - 30 year old Vintage unit that is working perfectly and will continue to do so for long is only fooling himself.
The simple laws of averages and physics has to catch up with electronics at some point in time and none of it is designed to last indeffinately.
The trick is to find the keeper and then spend the money to keeper going!

Gary

 

[fabvsix]

This is common sense.....If you were to buy a 1965 mustang that has been garaged by granny with low miles, do you think you could just buy and drive the hell out of it to 100,000 miles with no issue........I think not........it will need to be serviced at the least......

 

[SansuiSamRI]

This is a very interesting post for me to read. I have opinions on the subject. Being a tech, I prefer to buy gear that may have a problem. I want it to look good, minimum scratches, and no missing knobs or parts. I can fix it myself and do the restore. It's OK if it blows fuses, has distortion, or a bad channel. I believe in the final product being QUALITY, not the QUANTITY of gear I collect. Too often I see people buy vintage, then bitch about their repair bill. WTF were you thinking when you bought it? Or they think they can fix it themselves. For true collectors, it makes sense to buy and pay extra for a restored unit.

Now as far as a 'certified tech', well, there really isn't a certification process that they go through for vintage. It's doubful that any one working on vintage gear was ever certified when the product was new. Qualified, yes, certified, no.

Hope you guys enjoy the vintage gear you've got. Take great care of it.

 

[pustelniakr]

I only deal in gear that is in the upper end of its particular spectrum. There is no margin the the lower end stuff. I cannot, in good conscience, sell gear that is not up to spec. All my gear is restored, rather that refurbished, to a greater or lesser degree. I pride myself, in providing 25+ year-old gear that is as close to new, in appearance and function, as is possible.

Most of my gear goes through the full monte, including recap (no mods, unless specifically requested by the potential customer). My stuff does NOT go for ePay prices, so it does not go fast. In the long run, it is less expensive to buy one of my fully restored units, than to by an ePay special, and send it to me for restoration. I would say that the savings are around 20%-25%.

Most of us that do real restorations, do not get anywhere near what the work is actually worth. I average about $0.75 per hour (yes, I said $0.75 per hour). We do it for love and a sence of accomplishment. Also, we would never put all that effort into a piece and then ship it in inadequate packaging. Also, even at what we get for our work, restoration is NOT cheap.

Concerning receipts for all the parts...Sorry, I don't do onesy-twosey parts purchases, and there is no way to prove labor time. The proof is in the pudding itself. That applies to certification of "techsmanship". You want to know if the work is any good? Look in the feedback forum.

Now...Is the work worth it? It is, if you want a unit that actually does what it was designed to do, up to the level(s) it was designed to do it to. If you want pretty, get an ePay special, deluxe. If you want pretty and full functionality, buy a fully restored unit, or an epay special,deluxe, then invest in the restoration. Just because a unit works, does not mean you really know how good it is supposed to sound. After 25-30 years in the barn, you would not expect to get in a Masserati, and fire it up, and race off into the sunset, without a bit of tender-loving-care administered to her, if only for safety's sake.

There! For 2 cents, you get alot of schpiel.

Rich P

 

[carolinabirdman]

I recently bought a MAC 4100 which had ben re-done by Terry in Chatanooga. I was very happy to pay extra for this piece. The work was well documented, the reciever couldn't be better and I was ready to pay more than the seller was asking for it.

 

[seadzz]

IMost of us that do real restorations, do not get anywhere near what the work is actually worth. I average about $0.75 per hour (yes, I said $0.75 per hour). We do it for love and a sence of accomplishment. Also, we would never put all that effort into a piece and then ship it in inadequate packaging. Also, even at what we get for our work, restoration is NOT cheap.

Exactly "spot on" as some folks say. The work is done for the love of the technology and out of respect for the folks that did the original design work. In many cases I view the "build quality" almost as artwork and by dismembering and renewing these units you can gain some sense of understanding of the thought process that went into the product....much of this is a lost art today.

Think back, much of this vintage gear was designed by folks using slide rulers....been there seen that. It is remarkable they got to the fit and finish level they did given the tools of the day. Laying out PCB's without the benefit of a PC??? That my friend is work.

In any event most of us work on this gear for the love of the “chase”. I'm 100% sure others when its all said and done do not do this for the money. Heck when you look at what capacitors cost at our buying levels, factor in freight and overhead we would need to charge $140 per hour for our time if the intent was to make any money. Based on my experience doing a recap (electrolytic only) on a given amp takes at least 8 hours and can take twice that or more if you have not worked on a given model before. Since you tend to figure out things as you go along with a recap the process tends to be real inefficient. You also need to factor in the ah @!#%(*& that happens when you bust a diode or some odd transistor in the process.

To address the OP's question I think some folks purchase equipment that has been reconditioned with the expectation of fewer problems down the road. I know when I do a ebay purchase that I "set the bar" real low. If the unit arrives with the power cord intact and powers up I consider that fantastic. If it actually works too....well that is a miracle and I expect it to crap out at any minute (9 out of 10 times it will).

I will say that the quality of gear being offered for sale at ebay has not kept pace with it's asking price. I saw a few instances where folks were posting a "opening price" on a Sansui in the $280 range with BIN prices near $400. That my dear readers is pure )(&^!@#. Of course they make reference that the unit has been checked by their "tech" and all is cleaned and adjusted. That is ebay lingo for someone turned the unit upside down, shook all the mice and dead birds out then Windexed the case.

sdz

 

[krazyknuc]

I have not posted this news yet, but I am currently in the process of purchasing a Marantz 2325 from a local stereo shop that has had the unit in there for 3 years for repair (completed long ago, owner never came back to get it ) and the shop has decided to sell it to me for $500 Canadian.
Now, it's not perfect cosmetically, has a few scratches, most of which will be covered by the wood case I plan to purchase for it somewhere down the road.
All lights and fuctions work as they should and I performed the only "field' test I know of, dc offset, and it was about 16 mV and 27 mV +/-.
I explained that while that was within "acceptable" limits I was hoping it could be adjusted to as close to zero as possible, definately below 15 +/- and gave them our website in case they had any questions they waqnted to research regarding the dc offset and bias or replacing the trim pots etc. and they agreed to take a look at that for me when their most experienced tech is in this Friday.
For me, this is the ultimate receiver I will ever purchase (ok.....along with the Sony 7800SD, Pioneer SX-838, etc. I already have ...you get the picture) and I really appreciate the time these guys are willing to take.
For this receiver, the price is lower than these usually go for in
American $$$ on epay.
Not to mention that I believe I have found an honorable repair shop for the 6 or so pieces (so far ..... come on spring, I can't wait for those garage sales to start up ) I am unable to fix with deoxit
Now I can stop irritating Echowars with my inability to perform/understand his repair advice. :thmbsp:
This is a super website, I can't thank all of you enough !!!