Replace turntable or cart - interesting advice from a stereo salesman

csgreene

Active Member
My three turntables (Technics SL-QL1, Denon DP-23F, Marantz 6100) are all vintage now. All work properly and I recently replaced the carts on the Technics (with a NOS AT450e which was a HUGE improvement over the original Technics cart and aftermarket stylus). I'm letting one of my sons use the Denon and I recently put in a new AT95e cart in the Marantz. As some of you will know, this was more of a basic CEC made for Marantz table. Mine is near mint, dead quiet, speed is good, and everything works the way it's supposed to.

Now, the above said, I've been thinking of getting a new turntable for no really good reason as I'm not really unsatisfied with what I have but I kept thinking a new Pro_ject, Rega, Music Hall in the $1000-1500 range would/should give me some serious improvement over what I own already.

Still with me? OK, so in talking to a guy who works at a high end shop that sells two of these three brands and Clearaudio and a couple more, he suggested that rather buy a new table, I upgrade to something like an Ortofon 2M Bronze on my Marantz. I don't object to a significant upgrade to what might be a $200 table these days but his point was if it was working at 100%, I'd gain more from spending a few hundred on the cartridge than a $1600 on something like the MH 7.3 with the 2M Bronze. I'm not particularly sold on Ortofon as I've never used one but AT has similar price points with their VM540 and VM740 carts.

Love to hear your opinions on his thinking/advice! I thought it was rather remarkable that a guy who sells higher end gear for a living would suggest keeping an ancient, entry level table and spending some money on a cart.
 
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No expert but in my experience if you are going to stay with mid-level gear and not taking a giant step upgrade, a better cartridge is the best money spent. You would have to have a very revealing system to notice a big change in tables without also moving up the ladder in carts. I have a few TOTL vintage tables (albeit none what I call "high end") and honestly can't tell them apart sonically with the same carts on them.
Others may think differently.
 
Still with me? OK, so in talking to a guy who works at a high end shop that sells two of these three brands and Clearaudio and a couple more, he suggested that rather buy a new table, I upgrade to something like an Ortofon 2M Bronze on my Marantz. I don't object to a significant upgrade to what might be a $200 table these days but his point was if it was working at 100%, I'd gain more from spending a few hundred on the cartridge than a $1600 on something like the MH 7.3 with the 2M Bronze. I'm not particularly sold on Ortofon as I've never used one but AT has similar price points with their VM540 and VM740 carts.

Love to hear your opinions on his thinking/advice! I thought it was rather remarkable that a guy who sells higher end gear for a living would suggest keeping an ancient, entry level table and spending some money on a cart.

The recently discontinued Audio Technica AT 44- MLb is still available on Ebay for pretty very good price.

It would take the sound reproduction performance of the Marantz 6100 to a very high level.

As good as if not better than a $200.00 present day turn table. :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Tech...rentrq:2eb180671670aaa3337defa3fff454d1|iid:1
 
Thanks, Balifly.

Not sure if your last comment was veiled in suggesting that I don't spend the money on an upgraded cart for this 6100. Maybe I could simply replace the stylus on the AT95e with one of those expensive optional ones?
 
Upgrade the Marantz 6100 cartridge, it's capable of doing justice to a nice $200 or under MM option. An Audio-Technica VM series would be nice on your Marantz.
 
That's what I thought too, Kent.

That said, I just plugged my Technics SL-QL1 back into my system and listened to a couple of the same records I'd played on the Marantz. With the new old stock AT450e cart in it, it absolutely kicks the Marantz's butt with its AT95e. I ought to just leave well enough alone and enjoy the Technics. Some people don't like these linear trackers but this thing has been flawless for 35 years now. Listening to my original Brian Auger's Oblivion Express Vol. 1 that I've had since 1974, it sounds amazing.

I gotta stay offa these audio forums... Bad things can happen to my wallet. ;)
 
Thanks, Balifly.

Not sure if your last comment was veiled in suggesting that I don't spend the money on an upgraded cart for this 6100. Maybe I could simply replace the stylus on the AT95e with one of those expensive optional ones?

Straight forward comment, I have the Marantz 6100 and would use an even better cartridge on it.

You can probably use the more advance AT 440 MLa or MLb stylus on the older AT 450e cartridge body. :idea:

Not surprise that the AT 450E cartridge sounds better than the AT 95E.

It should, no matter on which turn table.

Just wait till you hear the AT 440 MLb. :)
 
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Straight forward comment, I have the Marantz 6100 and would use an even better cartridge on it.

You can probably use the more advance AT 440 MLa or MLb stylus on the older AT 450e cartridge body. :idea:

Not surprise that the AT 450E cartridge sound better than the AT 95E.

It should, no matter on which turn table.

Just wait till you hear the AT 440 MLb. :)

Thanks again, Balifly. So in your opinion is this cartridge superior to its replacement, the AT540ML?
 
My three turntables (Technics SL-QL1, Denon DP-23F, Marantz 6100) are all vintage now. All work properly and I recently replaced the carts on the Technics (with a NOS AT450e which was a HUGE improvement over the original Technics cart and aftermarket stylus). I'm letting one of my sons use the Denon and I recently put in a new AT95e cart in the Marantz. As some of you will know, this was more of a basic CEC made for Marantz table. Mine is near mint, dead quiet, speed is good, and everything works the way it's supposed to.

Now, the above said, I've been thinking of getting a new turntable for no really good reason as I'm not really unsatisfied with what I have but I kept thinking a new Pro_ject, Rega, Music Hall in the $1000-1500 range would/should give me some serious improvement over what I own already.

Still with me? OK, so in talking to a guy who works at a high end shop that sells two of these three brands and Clearaudio and a couple more, he suggested that rather buy a new table, I upgrade to something like an Ortofon 2M Bronze on my Marantz. I don't object to a significant upgrade to what might be a $200 table these days but his point was if it was working at 100%, I'd gain more from spending a few hundred on the cartridge than a $1600 on something like the MH 7.3 with the 2M Bronze. I'm not particularly sold on Ortofon as I've never used one but AT has similar price points with their VM540 and VM740 carts.

Love to hear your opinions on his thinking/advice! I thought it was rather remarkable that a guy who sells higher end gear for a living would suggest keeping an ancient, entry level table and spending some money on a cart.

To get real improvement you need to step up to LOMC type cartridge. I do not think you will find it for less than $500, more like $800-1000. But for it to work appropriately, you need to upgrade table/tonearm too. Whatever you have now is "low end" of the spectrum. You need to get into midrange of tables. In today's market it means $1000+ table, if buy new. Or vintage at $600+. For LOMC you will likely need new phono preamp too. Decent ones start from $500 new. Keep yourself in vinyl game does not come cheap, unfortunately.
 
I see what you did there! The joke about somebody making a living selling HiFi in 2018? Funny!

Seriously though, I am amazed you found a sales guy who didn't insist you buy a swanky machine. I also sort of agree with others who recommend a new/"better" cartridge for one of your existing machines. I'd recommend something different though, depending on your tonearms. If you have substantial tonearms, I would try a heavy tracking conical, something like a Shure sc35c, or a Denon DL-103 (depending on your phono stage) or, if you wanna go big, one of the Ortofon SPUs. There is a substance to these heavy trackers that other airy fairy carts cannot match.


My three turntables (Technics SL-QL1, Denon DP-23F, Marantz 6100) are all vintage now. All work properly and I recently replaced the carts on the Technics (with a NOS AT450e which was a HUGE improvement over the original Technics cart and aftermarket stylus). I'm letting one of my sons use the Denon and I recently put in a new AT95e cart in the Marantz. As some of you will know, this was more of a basic CEC made for Marantz table. Mine is near mint, dead quiet, speed is good, and everything works the way it's supposed to.

Now, the above said, I've been thinking of getting a new turntable for no really good reason as I'm not really unsatisfied with what I have but I kept thinking a new Pro_ject, Rega, Music Hall in the $1000-1500 range would/should give me some serious improvement over what I own already.

Still with me? OK, so in talking to a guy who works at a high end shop that sells two of these three brands and Clearaudio and a couple more, he suggested that rather buy a new table, I upgrade to something like an Ortofon 2M Bronze on my Marantz. I don't object to a significant upgrade to what might be a $200 table these days but his point was if it was working at 100%, I'd gain more from spending a few hundred on the cartridge than a $1600 on something like the MH 7.3 with the 2M Bronze. I'm not particularly sold on Ortofon as I've never used one but AT has similar price points with their VM540 and VM740 carts.

Love to hear your opinions on his thinking/advice! I thought it was rather remarkable that a guy who sells higher end gear for a living would suggest keeping an ancient, entry level table and spending some money on a cart.
 
Disagree on most points. Are you going to send money to the OP to facilitate all of those purchases?


To get real improvement you need to step up to LOMC type cartridge. I do not think you will find it for less than $500, more like $800-1000. But for it to work appropriately, you need to upgrade table/tonearm too. Whatever you have now is "low end" of the spectrum. You need to get into midrange of tables. In today's market it means $1000+ table, if buy new. Or vintage at $600+. For LOMC you will likely need new phono preamp too. Decent ones start from $500 new. Keep yourself in vinyl game does not come cheap, unfortunately.
 
The AT is a fine cartridge but Tom had one then borrowed my VLOMC Ortofon MC20 and phono preamplifier and then went out and bought an MC cartridge (or three). If your budget is in the 1.5k range, you can easily put a sweet sounding cartridge and appropriate signal handling equipment in front of your amp to make that a great move.

We have a mod here that had some nice Thorens tables and decent cartridges. He bought a 1500 buck music hall and kept it a few months saying the Thorens were better. He has upped his game in turntables a number of times with moving coil cartridges, too.

We have a member of our listening group with a Pio PL-41 that has used an AT 33EV cartridge and replaced that with a Dynavector 20X2 as he is trying to get the most from his table. He is very happy with the results. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/new-cartridge-playing-on-an-old-table.730529/

I believe the salesman was telling you the right thing to do. The Ortofon Bronze is one of the best MM cartridges available and will easily wipe the sizzly, crisp AT 440. Going moving coil is a nice move if that is also a possibility.

If you need crispy sound, the AT might be a good move but it depends on your gear and desires for the sound you get.

Once you get the step up whether that be an SUT or MC phono preamp to phono input level or a full blown phono preamp to line level for an MC cartridge it opens the doors to trying a number of different cartridges as you explore that world.
 
I think I'll sleep on it and call the place that has the 440mlb listed at $200 shipped. I don't think I could bring myself to spend double that for this old Marantz table but I've been so pleased with the AT450e I put on my Technics table that this could be a reasonable solution.

I'm really more into streaming these days but having about 500 albums left from the old days (just playing an old copy of Revolver on the Technics), I would like to hear them as good as I can (within rea$on) on my existing system which is a 1995 Yamaha RX-V990 playing through Celestion DL-8 II speakers (which I've owned since the mid-80's).

I am not one to chase rainbows, especially with audio gear. I have some nice stuff in other systems but I'm very comfortable in the so-called "mid-fi" price range. I am far more interested in the music I listen to than the gear. I just want the music to sound pleasing to my ears. Adding more things (phono stages, experimenting with cartridges, stylii, etc.) is not really in my DNA.
 
The 440B is a very nice sounding cartridge especially for the money, but as Shadow says it has the AT brightness which some would call detail. As someone in the local group who has also moved up the chain to LOMCs, I'd recommend saving your pennies and making a big move up, it's worth it in the end. My neighbor was happy with his 440B until he heard it back to back with an Ortofon MC25FL in the same system.
 
. . . Love to hear your opinions on his thinking/advice! I thought it was rather remarkable that a guy who sells higher end gear for a living would suggest keeping an ancient, entry level table and spending some money on a cart.
My experience is that a better turntable/arm get more performance from a cartridge than a lesser turntable/arm, to the point that a cheap cartridge on a good turntable will outperform an expensive cartridge on a lesser turntable. I've happily used cartridges at around the $100 and under price point for decades on turntables from Linn, Well Tempered, and now Rega. Higher-priced cartridges do not materially increase my involvement in or enjoyment of the musical performance (which to me is primarily about pace, rhythm, and dynamics, not frequency response or imaging). But different people, and salesmen are people too, have different experiences and opinions. I suggest that you take your 'table to a good shop and let them demonstrate different options to you so your own ears can decide what works best.
 
i think consideration needs to be given to not only the cartridge/stylus combination, but also the phono preamp before moving up the chain in tables
 
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