replacing ecap w/film cap on speaker crossover

40 year old ecap that now measures 2.98uf to a new set of polyp caps.

Thats probably the real advantage of a re-cap. The parts aren't shot. The other thing is that film caps last just about forever so it will not deteriorate as time goes on. I recapped the crossovers in my mid 80s Klipsch speakers. The two film caps were still bang-on, the electrolytic had drifted. I kept the film caps to use in something else if I need to, the electrolytic went in the trash.
 
I'm not disagreeing but today's ecap are of a much higher quality than they were 40 years ago. So any replacement would be an improvement.
 
It's easiest to think of the capacitors in physical form, thus my analogy. A higher value cap is nothing more than a larger plate area compared to a smaller value. What happens is, sure, the esr gets paralleled and is lower. The problem is the esr of the smaller value caps is higher, so you end up with exactly the same number in the end. Long and wide, or square or whatever, all that matters is the area. As an example using 4 caps- Say Mylar again, and 1 uF paralleled to get 4 uF. The esr of the 1 uF caps at 1 kHz is going to be 796 milliohms. The esr of a 4 uF cap at 1 kHz will be 199 milliohms, 1/4 of the smaller value, regardless of whether it's made as 1 or paralleled from 4. Obviously it goes down as the value goes up, so if the value doesn't matter, but esr does, use a bigger cap! That's exactly how caps for switching supplies are chosen, by esr rather than value, since the reactance is plenty low at the high frequency even with a low value cap. They have to get the esr down to prevent the cap from heating up and failing, so they just keep moving up the value chart in the data sheet until the esr is low enough.
 
I'm not disagreeing but today's ecap are of a much higher quality than they were 40 years ago. So any replacement would be an improvement.

We all really want to believe this, creating analogies to rubber tires and such. How could tremendous progress not have been made in 40 years? How could the seals still be sealing? All caps degrade, so the insides must be mush by now. The problem is when you start measuring 40 year old parts you find they were pretty darn good (especially those Elnas) and many remain as good as the replacement parts that are going in. Now, some percentage are shot, and I figure whenever the rest are going to fail, it's 40 years sooner than if they were new, so I don't have many qualms about replacing them. Unfortunately we don't have any history on the new parts, and unlike the old days when Sprague would publish life test results for all to see, companies today are loath to share any lab data at all.
 
It's easiest to think of the capacitors in physical form, thus my analogy. A higher value cap is nothing more than a larger plate area compared to a smaller value. What happens is, sure, the esr gets paralleled and is lower. The problem is the esr of the smaller value caps is higher, so you end up with exactly the same number in the end. Long and wide, or square or whatever, all that matters is the area. As an example using 4 caps- Say Mylar again, and 1 uF paralleled to get 4 uF. The esr of the 1 uF caps at 1 kHz is going to be 796 milliohms. The esr of a 4 uF cap at 1 kHz will be 199 milliohms, 1/4 of the smaller value, regardless of whether it's made as 1 or paralleled from 4. Obviously it goes down as the value goes up, so if the value doesn't matter, but esr does, use a bigger cap! That's exactly how caps for switching supplies are chosen, by esr rather than value, since the reactance is plenty low at the high frequency even with a low value cap. They have to get the esr down to prevent the cap from heating up and failing, so they just keep moving up the value chart in the data sheet until the esr is low enough.

I was looking around, seems like ESL goes up with the cap value. Yes, ESR seems to go down with increase value. From rough look, seems ESR inverse proportion the cap value, so it's a push when you use 4 1uF to get 4uF. But ESL goes up with cap value, so parallel definitely win.

https://en.tdk.eu/inf/20/20/db/fc_2009/MKP_B32674_678.pdf
 
Looking at that data sheet, the proportion doesn't work out exactly, but I'm not seeing much deviation from expected. Esl is measured at resonance, so if you're operating near there it matters. Not sure if it affects much else. Esl is usually a huge function of physical size and lead spacing because it's determined by loop area. Want high resonance and minimum esl- get the closest lead spacing available and/or use surface mount parts!
 
It's confusing, I literally looking at ESL as a physical series inductance with the ideal capacitor. ESL and ESR is just a series inductor and resistor with the ideal capacitor. Yes, the inductance also depends on the lead length and the loop area.

Is the inductance calculated from the resonance frequency the same as in the spec in the datasheet? That is using resonance fc=1/[2pi X sqrt(LC)] where L is the ESL specified in the datasheet, C is the capacitor value? If what I said is correct, then What I drew in (C) is correct and the series inductance should be 1/4 of each capacitor. So is the resistance.

Parallel caps 1.JPG



Or look at the other way where if you parallel 4 capacitors, the length "l" still remain the same by the width "W" is 4 times wide. The 4 leads on each side is on the W side.

Parallel caps 2.JPG

I know the way I look at it is correct for resistors. That if you parallel 4 resistors, it is like 4 resistance surface put in a straight line like in the drawing where the length "l" remains the same by the "W" is 4 times wide. If you look at the resistance between the two terminals, the resistance is 1/4 of each individual resistor.
 
This is probably getting too deep and should move to the cap thread. I believe what you're saying is correct, but at audio frequencies the esl is canceled by the capacitance. In terms of a black box model, it doesn't exist at any one frequency, even if you draw it as part of the model. I believe it's only an explanation for the overall impedance curve, and shows up as a real value beyond resonance. That's way too high to worry about in a crossover. The thing that bothers me is the definition of esl. The data sheet says they measure it at resonance, but that doesn't make sense. At resonance, the phase shift should go to zero. In fact, that's how you find it with any accuracy. If the phase shift is zero, you don't have any reactance at all, just a pure resistance. So where's the esl at that point?

No doubt the poor OP lost interest in this way back, but I'll say most of the crossovers I've built had parallel caps for two reasons. First, I never had exact values available, so parallel combinations were needed to get what I wanted. Second, big values are expensive or unavailable, so I often paralleled inexpensive and surplus caps to get up to the larger value needed. FWIW, I've found parallel combinations to be indistinguishable from single caps of the same value and type on any measurement system. IOW, both value and losses remain the same.
 
There seems to be two opinions/theories about this. So, a practical question that maybe all are in agreement; what happens when you parallel both ecaps and film caps together? Do all the caps get the same "use"?
 
IMO, with bipolar ecaps and film caps, just do it. If you think it sounds better, it sounds better. What actually happens in terms of capacitance and losses at various frequencies is interesting if you like to calculate such things, but that understanding isn't really needed to get the job done. The values add as you'd expect. Just don't fall for the idea that the ecap becomes less effective at high frequencies and the film bypasses the signal across it. It's an appealing idea, but it doesn't hold up under analysis. Decide what you need, get the total with practical parts and let your ears guide you.
 
This is probably getting too deep and should move to the cap thread. I believe what you're saying is correct, but at audio frequencies the esl is canceled by the capacitance. In terms of a black box model, it doesn't exist at any one frequency, even if you draw it as part of the model. I believe it's only an explanation for the overall impedance curve, and shows up as a real value beyond resonance. That's way too high to worry about in a crossover. The thing that bothers me is the definition of esl. The data sheet says they measure it at resonance, but that doesn't make sense. At resonance, the phase shift should go to zero. In fact, that's how you find it with any accuracy. If the phase shift is zero, you don't have any reactance at all, just a pure resistance. So where's the esl at that point?

No doubt the poor OP lost interest in this way back, but I'll say most of the crossovers I've built had parallel caps for two reasons. First, I never had exact values available, so parallel combinations were needed to get what I wanted. Second, big values are expensive or unavailable, so I often paralleled inexpensive and surplus caps to get up to the larger value needed. FWIW, I've found parallel combinations to be indistinguishable from single caps of the same value and type on any measurement system. IOW, both value and losses remain the same.
Ha ha, maybe one day when we have time, run the experiment since we both have the non linear green resistor and look at the data. It is confusing how they define the ESL and ESR. I thought it's just the simple resonance equation at resonance frequency fc, XL=XC and you know C, so you simply calculate the L. From what you are saying, it's not that simple.

Anyway, I was surprised how low the ESL the film caps are, I would expect with so many layers for a big cap, the ESL should be higher than 100nH. If it's a few hundred nH, the inductance definitely comes into play like the equation I have. But for 10nH, you can just ignore it all together.
 
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IMO, with bipolar ecaps and film caps, just do it. If you think it sounds better, it sounds better. What actually happens in terms of capacitance and losses at various frequencies is interesting if you like to calculate such things, but that understanding isn't really needed to get the job done. The values add as you'd expect. Just don't fall for the idea that the ecap becomes less effective at high frequencies and the film bypasses the signal across it. It's an appealing idea, but it doesn't hold up under analysis. Decide what you need, get the total with practical parts and let your ears guide you.


This is how I look at this, Yes, for audio freq, it really does not matter in parallel small caps. It does not make any difference in sound ( most likely). BUT there is something else need to be consider here.......stability. Amps always oscillate at a few hundred KHz, not at audio frequency. I have been working on the stability of my new amp pcb for over a week making it pass more stringent test.....by hanging the cap at the output before turning the power on. This is a much worst test than just have the amp on and add capacitor at the output connector of the amp like I did last time..

I have seen oscillation over 600KHz, at this frequency, the loss of the ecap likely comes into play. The normal supposedly AC grounded points might not as grounded as you think anymore.

I do put smaller ceramic caps like 0.1uF in parallel for all bypass. Mostly like from collector of the emitter followers to ground on top of the 10uF ecap. One other point I do that is the AC ground for the feedback gain setting resistor. Say I make the gain of the amp to be 21, I use 20K feedback resistor from output to -ve input, then a 1K resistor from -ve input to AC ground. I use two 100uF non polar ecap in parallel with a 10uF ceramic and 0.1uF. I am sure I am overkilling it as I am anal. But if the ESR and ESL goes up at 300KHz, the closed loop gain can drop enough to become unstable.

That's how I roll with this, don't care about the signal path, but do care on all the bypass point to make sure it's truly bypassed at high frequency where it hurts, nothing to do with audio, but for stability.
 
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I almost hate to bring this up but how about PIOs? I have some left over K42-y-2s. Are they of any benefit in a crossover circuit paralleled with the polypropylene?
 
This is why you have to trust your ears. I can give you technical reasons why polypropylene is superior to most everything else, including PIO caps, but if the PIOs add or subtract something and you think it sounds better, go for it. I once built a speaker system with excellent parts and tweaked it until it measured beautifully flat. It was intolerable to listen to. I'm talking awful. The right measurements would have explained it, but my point is that you shouldn't tie yourself to what may be irrelevant numbers and suffer with bad sound. When I've built speakers I start with the crossover outside the box, so I can tweak and adjust as necessary.
 
IMHO this thread has gone too complex. Interesting reading no doubt.

But oldman55, you had the right idea from the very start. Trade those original electolitycs in for polypropylene. If you need to parallel to get the original uF value, then that is what paralleling is for. If the cap in series with the midrage is too large a value for an affordable polypropylene replacement, then either get a new bi-polar e-cap and bypass with polypropylene, or possibly consider polyester film, aka mylar. As pointed out by gadget, you have variable L-pads in place if your ear tells you that the poly caps resulted in too much brightness.

The only other things I would suggest would be a good cleaning of all contact points that are not soldered. Corrosion on metal surfaces develops slowly over time, but it can have an affect. If there is a way to get contact cleaner inside the variable L-pads, or even taking them apart for cleaning, this might be a good thing too. And also check the integrity of any solder joints.


enjoy the music ....:music:
 
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You cant nickel and dime when it comes to audio grade XO poly caps. The wheel has already been invented; in modern times rule-of-thumb is always replace ANY XO cap with reputable audio grade poly's. Never use 'lytics. Period. Stay away from Solen and Dayton Audio or any bottom end Chinese made generic with a myriad of name brand stamps on them. Jantzen Superior Z still remains a best buy standard. Use a single cap as close to the original value as possible and do not parallel. Pretty simple. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html.

And for you EE's and over thinking enthusiasts, there is nothing new to discover; only repair and replace.
 
That beg another question. What's up with the really expensive film caps? I've seen $30 or more for a cap and people swear by them. As discussed, those reasonable film caps is already have ESR and ESL down to <10mohm and <15nH. So what make those $30 cap better? Is it psychosomatic or is it real?
 
You cant nickel and dime when it comes to audio grade XO poly caps. The wheel has already been invented; in modern times rule-of-thumb is always replace ANY XO cap with reputable audio grade poly's. Never use 'lytics. Period. Stay away from Solen and Dayton Audio or any bottom end Chinese made generic with a myriad of name brand stamps on them. Jantzen Superior Z still remains a best buy standard. Use a single cap as close to the original value as possible and do not parallel. Pretty simple. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html.

And for you EE's and over thinking enthusiasts, there is nothing new to discover; only repair and replace.
It's not about inventing something new here, it's about trying to understand why and separate facts from fiction.
 
It's easiest to think of the capacitors in physical form, thus my analogy. A higher value cap is nothing more than a larger plate area compared to a smaller value. What happens is, sure, the esr gets paralleled and is lower. The problem is the esr of the smaller value caps is higher, so you end up with exactly the same number in the end. Long and wide, or square or whatever, all that matters is the area.

This is all true. There's an additional effect, however, and that's caused by the capacitor's leads and inductance. This does not matter for audio frequencies, but it is an important issue for switching supplies and the decoupling capacitors present in high-frequency circuits like cell phones and computer motherboards. Just to clarify.

Decoupling using dozens or hundreds of small capacitors in parallel reduces the overall ESR to the point that the circuit Q (a measure of losses, lower means lossier, higher means less lossy) rises, and oscillation is not damped out. The solution is using a mix of capacitors with both higher ESR and lower ESR to tune the Q low enough that resistive losses in the capacitors then damp the oscillation.

Another issue arises from mixing capacitors of different sizes; this can cause self-resonance because the C and L values are different and they form resonant circuits. The noise spikes to be damped actually excite that resonant circuit. This is why decoupling planes in computers use a sea of identical capacitors. Again, a problem faced at higher frequencies, not those in audio. Using a mix of values is actually beneficial, since it drops the ESR and ESL, and resistance and inductance, as always, decline when placed in parallel.

If you want to read more about high-frequency issues the magic search phrase is "ground bounce". It has no applicability to HiFi, but it does explain what happens.
 
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