Review: ALK Engineering Forte I crossover upgrade

Sonance'84

moe.ron
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As stated in the title, this thread is my review on the ALK Engineering Forte I crossovers. I've only had them installed for about 10 days now. I have titanium tweeter diaphragms also, just an FYI.

If you'd like to see the build thread, it's right here.

I was using Bob Crites' crossovers prior to the ALK's for about 3.5 years and loved them. I listen to all kinds of music and have used all types of gear with the Fortes...always preferred tubes, though I'm forced to use solid-state for the time being, but I'm not complainingl. My system during review consists of a Marantz SA8003 SACD player that I've been using since 2009 (only thing that has never left my system), Denon DP-3000 w/ Acos Lustre GST-1 arm and Shure M97xE cart, Yamaha C-60 pre, Yamaha M-60 and a 60GB iPod which feeds FLAC files to the Marantz. Kimber Kable 8VS and Hero are used for connections.

I was used to the high frequencies being very crisp and detailed at low volume levels, which I didn't get from the ALK crossovers at first. They sounded slightly laid back to me at first, which I then grew to appreciate the more I listened and the more I turned the volume up. This is from less overlap in the mid/high frequencies according to Al. You can really crank these without smearing the soundstage now, but they still sound great down low. The midrange grabbed me right away as being very smooth and less "honky" than I remember, which wasn't that much anyways, but notable. A lot of the little differences I'll describe are subtle at first but then become apparent as you listen to your favorite source material. That being said, this new found clarity and depth in the midrange is as much of an upgrade as you'd get from changing to higher quality ancillary gear, I kid you not. I do listen to FLAC files often but now I get the sense that I can hear more of the digital compression, even thought it's 1:1 (lossless). Switching to the same album on CD proved me right in the fact that I couldn't hear the slight grainy-ness as I did with the iPod. I couldn't really tell the difference before, except with my Alon IV's.

The soundstage they create is pinpoint accurate to the point where a local friend who has heard these speakers a ton of times said, "I feel like I can reach out and touch the instruments." I felt the same way and it was a recording we had heard many times. The imaginary center channel they create is more precise than before. They seem to represent the recordings better, in a more natural way...the instruments actually do sound just a little more real than before. The tones of hollow bodies, strings and wind instruments really come to life with the right material. Vocals have more air and throaty-ness. The graphs that Al shows in the construction of these shows a flatter frequency response, which is where I think some of this more natural sound is coming from. That, and the fact that Klipsch's stock design doesn't even use the first few hundred hertz of the midrange crossover point. So, I'm actually gaining crucial midrange information with the ALK's. Bad recordings don't benefit from the upgrade though, in fact, more of their shortcomings are now audible.

When the low end is needed they are no slouch, thanks in part to the larger gauge inductors. I sealed the cabinets up from air when I installed the ALK crossovers, so that might have helped out too. Now I get tighter bass and I feel it really can hit those low end frequency specs with ease. The bass isn't boomey at all but it can rattle the walls when the music calls for it. I think it is slightly stronger than before with better tone definition and the mid-bass carries a little more weight too.

Across the board I'm pretty impressed with this redesigned crossover for an old speaker. This is a case where an old dog really can learn new tricks. As I said above, these changes come off as subtle at first, but then become very noticeable once you dig in to some well known recordings. The midrange smoothness is the most notable of all, definitely the main attraction in this upgrade. Another really nice feature is their near ruler flat resistance (5.5ohm +/- 0.5ohm) which makes them a way better match with Single-Ended tube amps than the stock crossover. Any amp will benefit from this but the lower the power, the more this comes into play.

I tried not to exaggerate...but your ears and gear might get slightly different results. Hopefully this helps anyone thinking of trying these crossovers out, I know there's not much out there to read up on. If you have any questions about stuff I didn't cover, let me know and I'll try to answer them as best I can. I'd recommend them if you've got the upgrade bug and want to kick the Forte up a notch. :yes:

Thanks for reading!
Cory
 
Hi, me again. Your build thread shows you bought the crossover KITS from ALK for the Forte 1s. In a PM to me could you tell me the total $ outlay you paid for them with shipping? Are they sold individually or by the pair?
I'm trying to decide what I want to do with my F1 xovrs and your info is very intreguing.
My choices seem to be recap with better caps, crites xovers, or the ALKs. I dont plan to change speakers. I wonder if Moray James will chime in on this. Or SET12.
thanks for the review.

PS: my amp is a Dynaco ST-70, tubes, and it really brought my forte's to life in all aspects in their stock form.
 
Here's a few pictures of the seal up job I did to the Forte I's at the same time I installed the ALK crossovers. I used Mortite rope caulk ad new gaskets since I already had it on hand...would use closed cell foam if I would have known sooner. The other point where I know air can escape is from the grill mounting holes where the rubber grommets fit, 8 in each speaker. Some of my grommets were really loose, others seemed snug. Either way, I used RTV silicon adhesive to fill in the holes from behind...this provides a great seal that will last. RTV was also used under the caps and resistors on the crossovers, to help with vibration and security. The 3 drivers on the front are still using stock gaskets for now.

SANY0009-2.jpg


SANY0007-1.jpg


SANY0005-2.jpg
 
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Thats exactly the same caulk that I am going to use, and I also have closed cell and Mortite. I am going to install some brace in there as well. My dust caps on the passives are pushed in and I got a price of $45 each to repair, don't know if that is even worth it. Great job on the crossovers.

Here's a few pictures of the seal up job I did to the Forte I's at the same time I installed the ALK crossovers. I used Mortite rope caulk ad new gaskets since I already had it on hand...would use closed cell foam if I would have known sooner. The other point where I know air can escape is from the grill mounting holes where the rubber grommets fit, 8 in each speaker. Some of my grommets were really loose, others seemed snug. Either way, I used RTV silicon adhesive to fill in the holes from behind...this provides a great seal that will last. RTV was also used under the caps and resistors on the crossovers, to help with vibration and security. The 3 drivers on the front are still using stock gaskets for now.

SANY0009-2.jpg


SANY0007-1.jpg


SANY0005-2.jpg
 
I installed the ALK network in my Forte II's, and never looked back. It's a worthwhile upgrade. :thmbsp:
 
Thanks for the review. I had read the design thread over at the Klipsch forum and was curious about user experiences with these.
 
Thanks for the write-up, I had been waiting to hear your thoughts since your build post. My ALK networks shipped out yesterday so I am looking forward to putting them together this weekend.(I have the Yamaha C-80 and M-80, so I am looking for the same results you described.)
 
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Hi, me again. Your build thread shows you bought the crossover KITS from ALK for the Forte 1s. In a PM to me could you tell me the total $ outlay you paid for them with shipping? Are they sold individually or by the pair?
I'm trying to decide what I want to do with my F1 xovrs and your info is very intreguing.
My choices seem to be recap with better caps, crites xovers, or the ALKs. I dont plan to change speakers. I wonder if Moray James will chime in on this. Or SET12.
thanks for the review.

PS: my amp is a Dynaco ST-70, tubes, and it really brought my forte's to life in all aspects in their stock form.

Hi ferninando,

If I had a choice between the Crites and ALK's. I'd take the ALK's just because the Crites is essentially the stock abet better quality parts. While the ALK is essentially more electrically correct especially the mids.

I would like to hear both.

I do think both have to be better then the stock units. And more than likely each different sounding.

Though the stock design maybe what it is, subjectively when very high subjective value parts are use and the rest of the associated electronics is to a very high subjective value. The differences between the stock speaker and what I did is not a very subtle thing. So much so that on demo comparisons of the stock Forte to my modified often don't even last 30 seconds. One way to describe this might be to imagine a small book shelf speaker contrasted to a Khorn. That's how profound I feel it is.

And knowing the sound of small inductors and the effects of even one iron core inductor in a network regardless of its size. Let alone caps. I strongly suspect that neither the ALK's or the Crites is going give me what I have from my networks. But then again I have 10 times the cost in parts alone.

I do feel that the ALK with high value subjective parts could go even further then what it does with its component choices. But that could get expensive still even with compromises to control costs it still would likely yield even better sound.

The nice thing about the stock design is the parts values and counts are low which made my choices more inviting. Still I have a friend that is a speaker designer that has offered to work with me designing a new network on that is simple but more correct then stock. I would likely have a second order network on the woofer but the rest of the network might very well be similar to the one below which allows one to adjust the mids level without changing the crossover point which is not allowed on the stock Forte.

attachment.php


In the end its about your needs and perhaps cost. But for me its about sheer performance. And if you got on a plane and came and listened to what I have done I sincerely doubt you would be disappointed the Fortes here are no less of an ear opener then the $20,000 P39F's IMO and I have heard them.

SET12
 
Thanks for the reply SET12, but lets keep this thread on the subject of the ALK review and not get off track. :thmbsp:

I do feel that the ALK with high value subjective parts could go even further then what it does with its component choices. But that could get expensive still even with compromises to control costs it still would likely yield even better sound.

I've spoken with Al on the phone and through email and his thoughts on that seem to be in line with Bob Crite's...neither of them believe in break in (except for drivers), caps sounding different (when in spec), wires sounding different and so on. I asked Al about using better caps or inductors, like he uses on his KHorn and other crossovers, but he said it's not worth it. He uses the more costly parts for snob appeal, his words.

Inductors are very tricky and replacing them with different types, even if they are the same value, can invite problems to a network. They really need to be designed into the network with tests run on them to make sure they jive properly. There's ton's of debate over inductor types too...I'm not trying to get into that.

If I had money to burn through, I'd have just used Al's schematic and bought all boutique parts (my inner snob :D) to build them with, just for the hell of it. But, like Al said, the benefits of the redesigned network is already leaps and bounds ahead of a stock network w/ boutique parts.

They sound great to me, I don't feel like changing a thing. I got what I was looking for...refinement of an already great sound. :yes:
 
Set 12: could you start a thread about this xover. I cannot see why the mid can be level shifted without frequency change. Seems very similar to stock. Thanks Moray James.


Hi ferninando,

If I had a choice between the Crites and ALK's. I'd take the ALK's just because the Crites is essentially the stock abet better quality parts. While the ALK is essentially more electrically correct especially the mids.

I would like to hear both.

I do think both have to be better then the stock units. And more than likely each different sounding.

Though the stock design maybe what it is, subjectively when very high subjective value parts are use and the rest of the associated electronics is to a very high subjective value. The differences between the stock speaker and what I did is not a very subtle thing. So much so that on demo comparisons of the stock Forte to my modified often don't even last 30 seconds. One way to describe this might be to imagine a small book shelf speaker contrasted to a Khorn. That's how profound I feel it is.

And knowing the sound of small inductors and the effects of even one iron core inductor in a network regardless of its size. Let alone caps. I strongly suspect that neither the ALK's or the Crites is going give me what I have from my networks. But then again I have 10 times the cost in parts alone.

I do feel that the ALK with high value subjective parts could go even further then what it does with its component choices. But that could get expensive still even with compromises to control costs it still would likely yield even better sound.

The nice thing about the stock design is the parts values and counts are low which made my choices more inviting. Still I have a friend that is a speaker designer that has offered to work with me designing a new network on that is simple but more correct then stock. I would likely have a second order network on the woofer but the rest of the network might very well be similar to the one below which allows one to adjust the mids level without changing the crossover point which is not allowed on the stock Forte.

attachment.php


In the end its about your needs and perhaps cost. But for me its about sheer performance. And if you got on a plane and came and listened to what I have done I sincerely doubt you would be disappointed the Fortes here are no less of an ear opener then the $20,000 P39F's IMO and I have heard them.

SET12
 
Thanks for the review of the ALK network as I have been thinking about ordering a set myself. However, I have been down that road before with my Khorns and a combo of extreme/gentle slope xovers and I found them too smooth for my liking. I really thought they removed alot of the dynamics from my khorns but it really depends on what one has driving them. I can understand why people would prefer a more smooth presentation but I really like a bit of bite to my speaks so I decided to go with Bob's.

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the review of the ALK network as I have been thinking about ordering a set myself. However, I have been down that road before with my Khorns and a combo of extreme/gentle slope xovers and I found them too smooth for my liking. I really thought they removed alot of the dynamics from my khorns but it really depends on what one has driving them. I can understand why people would prefer a more smooth presentation but I really like a bit of bite to my speaks so I decided to go with Bob's.

Cheers!

I can't wait to try some tubes on them again...that's what made them sound best before, so I have high hopes. The ALK designs definitely "look" better to your amplification too, allowing SET amps to run extremely stable. There's some crazy impedance jumps/dips going on with any stock Klipsch network which amps, especially low powered, don't like.

I'll probably end up hitting them with some PP EL84 mono-blocks in the near future if I play my cards right. :music:
 
...neither of them (Bob or Al) believe in break in (except for drivers), caps sounding different (when in spec), wires sounding different and so on.


I'm 100% positive they believe that... I do not however, specifically about caps.

My ears tell me there are better sounding caps than others... But there is no reason to debate it much-less argue over it :D Sorta like politics and religion
 
Just did the ALK upgrade this weekend. My results were exactly as you described. Thanks for your review, as well as your build posts. These baby's sounded good before, they sound even better now. Gonna spend the rest of this long weekend in front of the speakers.
 
Very interesting evaluation.

Can I ask an off topic question? How do you play FLAC files from an IPOD? I thought FLAC was incompatible with Itunes. I've been wrestling with this problem for some time.
 
ALK Crossover review

Ok, so I've had my ALK crossovers in my Forte IIs for about a month now. My impression is the midrange sounds a bit soft and compressed. Veiled, maybe. I had another set of Fortes with just the Bob Crites Sonicap upgrade that sounded, like the beginning post from Telefunken said, crisp at low volumes. That was what I was expecting to hear. One of my favorite albums to listen to, often at low volumes at night, is Air - 10,000 hz legend. Great album, full of lush analog synth textures that are really brought out by the great Forte mid range. So all along anticipating upgrading my Forte IIs that was what I was expecting to experience, that great Forte detailed mid range with cymbals with definition that hung in space, and its just not there. Its all the same gear upstream, and even better tubes I think. But the sound is just not happening. I've thought about the reasons and the one difference between my Fortes and the IIs, aside from the completely different ALK designed crossover, is the cap upgrade on my Fortes used Sonicaps. The ALK crossovers use Solens in the signal path. I was under the impression that the Solens were a good cap, but the Sonicaps are regarded as a great cap. So I'll be getting a some Sonicaps to switch out the Solens with and see what happens. I'll also be replacing the polymer midrange diaphragm with the phenolic version or the ti diaphragms if I can get my hands on them somewhere. I'll update this post once I've made these changes to report on the differences, if any.
 
Forte were factory shipped with phenolic mid diaphragms. If you have poly diaphragms they are not stock but aftermarket so them replace them before you spend more money on capacitors. You have several option and they are in order from least to best. Klipsch phenolic, Bob Crites Phenolic and Klipsch Titanium. Install new diaphragms and play them hard and loud for as many continuous hours each day as you can. See what you think after a month of regular play. Best regards Moray James.
 
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