I don't think you missed a thing except his "savings". He's "generating" $2.26/month worth of electricity. He took a substantial loan out to finance the equipment to do so. That's a monthly cost. Where the $20 (or $45 depending on which of his posts you read) per month "savings" came from I still don't understand. $2.26/month is an inflated number in itself (calculated at $.1233/kWh). I highly doubt anyone pays nearly that much. As I stated much earlier in this thread, its a LONG payback time.
Rooftop Solar Panels
- Thread starter mulester7
- Start date
I don't think you missed a thing except his "savings". He's "generating" $2.26/month worth of electricity. He took a substantial loan out to finance the equipment to do so. That's a monthly cost. Where the $20 (or $45 depending on which of his posts you read) per month "savings" came from I still don't understand. $2.26/month is an inflated number in itself (calculated at $.1233/kWh). I highly doubt anyone pays nearly that much. As I stated much earlier in this thread, its a LONG payback time.
I'm considering one as well. The initial cost is quite high (well over $1,000). They also have a little forced-draft fan like the high-efficiency "tanked" PVC flued water heaters that are outrageously expensive to replace. I could buy a new 80% efficient heater like I have now for the cost of the little fan. The bottom line is still the bottom line: total cost over the life of the appliance. Saving $10/month is fruitless if you have to spend $140/year for maintenance (strictly random numbers). It gets worse when the appliance costs you 3 times as much to begin with. The payback seems to get so far out it may not be worth it. It takes quite a while to save $700 or so heating water. My last (and likely my current) clothes dryer had a ceramic electric "igniter" to light the gas. I think I replaced 4 or 5 @ $30 each on my old dryer. I'm quite sure an old fashioned pilot would've been cheaper. My furnace and water heater both have pilots. Cheap to buy, easy to work on and have lasted 23 years so far (one new gas valve on the furnace). No PC board "brains" that easily fry either. A thermocouple and a gas valve. KISS has it's merits. I may well be burning more gas than I could, but I'm burning fewer dollars.
Becoming an energy producer versus consumer would require quite a large system. I think most people's goal is to simply reduce their bill, not generate revenue. I'm pretty sure whomever you purchase your power from is required to buy it back at the same rate, deregulated state or not.
Valid points. As I previously stated, I'm pretty sure your provider is required by law to purchase your "excess" power. Batteries do work, but I won't even go into those costs for maintenance/replacement. When the sun goes down solar (quite obviously) and wind resources wain. This is why centrally located (mostly coal) power plants cannot be replaced by "renewables". You want lights at 2AM? Go rub your PV panel or try to make the wind blow. Or burn coal, gas or nukes. They can't go away or your alarm clock won't be going off. There are quite a few large wind turbine farms in my area. These are >1MW turbines. But they don't spin all the time. Back to that alarm clock. I'm all for "green" tree huggy stuff but reality must be reckoned with. Its not really a cure for anything. It surely helps (moreso at some times than others) but is not a panacea. As long as we want power at night we will be burning fossil fuels. There is a potential for nukes making a comeback as well, several utilities have filed for initial construction permits for new nuke plants. These are several years down the road at least. Our thirst for energy continues to increase. Wind and solar alone cannot satiate it.
bhundu
Addicted Member
I'll jump in on this one. I work in the solar industry here in Australia and I have solar hot water and a 1.575 kW solar PV array.
What we do here is use the grid as the storage medium. You make electicity from the panels in DC. How much you make depends on how many panels you install, the sunlight and rating of the panel. (I have 7x225W panels). This DC current goes to the "Inverter" that changes it to AC and makes it compatible with the grid. If you have any appliances turned on at the time of producing the electricity it will feed them first and any excess goes back to the grid. You get a meter that measures what you supply and another that measures what you take off.
The thing that helps us here is that we are paid $0.44 for every kWh that we provide but only charged $0.16 for what we take off. Until recently we had a Federal Govt rebate of $8000 for any system installed over 1kW. Most folks paid around $4000-$5000 for a 1kW system after their rebate was approved. This will provide them with an average daily output of 4.2kWh/day most of which is surplus.
For myself and my clients it was a no-brainer. Sure it may take 10 years to see the money back, but if you look at it like an investment it has a return of between 8-12%pa. As sure as eggs elecricity prices will never get any cheaper so this means your percentage return is only going to increase.
Rebates and feed-in tarrifs have helped here so it will depend on what's available to you, but if you intend on staying in your house for at least 10 years then i would recommend having a good look at it. Don't DIY though. Get quality panels and inverter and have them installed professionally with all the warranties. Like anything there is a lot of rubish out there and at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
Lee
What we do here is use the grid as the storage medium. You make electicity from the panels in DC. How much you make depends on how many panels you install, the sunlight and rating of the panel. (I have 7x225W panels). This DC current goes to the "Inverter" that changes it to AC and makes it compatible with the grid. If you have any appliances turned on at the time of producing the electricity it will feed them first and any excess goes back to the grid. You get a meter that measures what you supply and another that measures what you take off.
The thing that helps us here is that we are paid $0.44 for every kWh that we provide but only charged $0.16 for what we take off. Until recently we had a Federal Govt rebate of $8000 for any system installed over 1kW. Most folks paid around $4000-$5000 for a 1kW system after their rebate was approved. This will provide them with an average daily output of 4.2kWh/day most of which is surplus.
For myself and my clients it was a no-brainer. Sure it may take 10 years to see the money back, but if you look at it like an investment it has a return of between 8-12%pa. As sure as eggs elecricity prices will never get any cheaper so this means your percentage return is only going to increase.
Rebates and feed-in tarrifs have helped here so it will depend on what's available to you, but if you intend on staying in your house for at least 10 years then i would recommend having a good look at it. Don't DIY though. Get quality panels and inverter and have them installed professionally with all the warranties. Like anything there is a lot of rubish out there and at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
Lee
whsh93a
Super Member
Time to jump in again -
For those people who don't believe that you can get a $30K system for practically free (even without DIY or rebates) - I ran the numbers on an amorization calculator.
Apparently, many people think that the interest costs are the killer.
If you have a 30 year 200K loan at 7.9% (I chose that because that's what the loan calculator had in it to start with and I know that many people have much larger loans at even higher rates) and you have run your loan for (4) years already out of the 30 years - then, the next (2) years of interst you pay on the loan is = $17,155 and the monthly payments are $1330.
You refinance at 5% (you can go lower even today) and include the $30,000 extra for the PV system = $230K. The interest costs for that loan in the first two years is = $22,672 and monthly payments are $1283.
Difference in interst payments = $5517 (you pay this much more in the first (2) years of the new mortgage than years (5) and (6) of the old one)
Old payment = $1330 - new payment = $1283 = $47.00 savings.
PV system savings = $40.00 in this case (new mortgage is lower payments to start)
Total reduction per month = $87.00.
Time to pay off the difference with PV sytem in equation = 64 months = about (5) years (yes, I know, three years more interest not taken into account - yet). I made a point of choosing almost a worse case scenerio. So - to pay off the cost of the system in two years, just add the appropriate amount to the principle of your mortgage to knock down the interest payments even further. That amount is small - say $100 - which is about what your savings are from the PV system and new mortgage combined. It's a wash in costs and your sytem is practically free.
And that doesn't include the tax credits or if you did some of the work DIY - add those in and there isn't even a need to up principle payments to pay off the system in (2) years because you half the cost at least and start with a smaller refinance loan, too. Hopefully, now you can see that you can get a good PV sytem for practically nothing in today's environment and will stop trying to point out all the fictitious negatives (closing costs, higher taxes, embracing change, ugly roof, tree hugging persona).
I paid mine off in two years.
PV sytems are very reliable and usually require no maintneance other than cleaning the panels once in a while.
DH
For those people who don't believe that you can get a $30K system for practically free (even without DIY or rebates) - I ran the numbers on an amorization calculator.
Apparently, many people think that the interest costs are the killer.
If you have a 30 year 200K loan at 7.9% (I chose that because that's what the loan calculator had in it to start with and I know that many people have much larger loans at even higher rates) and you have run your loan for (4) years already out of the 30 years - then, the next (2) years of interst you pay on the loan is = $17,155 and the monthly payments are $1330.
You refinance at 5% (you can go lower even today) and include the $30,000 extra for the PV system = $230K. The interest costs for that loan in the first two years is = $22,672 and monthly payments are $1283.
Difference in interst payments = $5517 (you pay this much more in the first (2) years of the new mortgage than years (5) and (6) of the old one)
Old payment = $1330 - new payment = $1283 = $47.00 savings.
PV system savings = $40.00 in this case (new mortgage is lower payments to start)
Total reduction per month = $87.00.
Time to pay off the difference with PV sytem in equation = 64 months = about (5) years (yes, I know, three years more interest not taken into account - yet). I made a point of choosing almost a worse case scenerio. So - to pay off the cost of the system in two years, just add the appropriate amount to the principle of your mortgage to knock down the interest payments even further. That amount is small - say $100 - which is about what your savings are from the PV system and new mortgage combined. It's a wash in costs and your sytem is practically free.
And that doesn't include the tax credits or if you did some of the work DIY - add those in and there isn't even a need to up principle payments to pay off the system in (2) years because you half the cost at least and start with a smaller refinance loan, too. Hopefully, now you can see that you can get a good PV sytem for practically nothing in today's environment and will stop trying to point out all the fictitious negatives (closing costs, higher taxes, embracing change, ugly roof, tree hugging persona).
I paid mine off in two years.
PV sytems are very reliable and usually require no maintneance other than cleaning the panels once in a while.
DH
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whsh93a
Super Member
Ok - no - show me.
Most of the interest on a loan is up-front - so it has nothing to do with the long term interest payments does it - or do you still think it does?
DH
Most of the interest on a loan is up-front - so it has nothing to do with the long term interest payments does it - or do you still think it does?
DH
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merrylander
AK Member
If you need batteries for a PV system find out where your phone company gets theirs. We ran the 48 volt batteries on 'float' in the switching centers and got years out of them. Mostly Gould and Exide.
With 4.5 acres if Vestas wants to put one of their big units in the back yard I would not mind at all. It would cut my electric bill and piss off the neighbors - two birds with one stone.
With 4.5 acres if Vestas wants to put one of their big units in the back yard I would not mind at all. It would cut my electric bill and piss off the neighbors - two birds with one stone.
HatchetJack
Chillin' The Most
This is where I will start looking if I ever pursue this venture as I am a
diy'r and it looks cheaper than 30,000.00 even if its just a partial
solar system.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial
Now lets see how many watts would I need to power my marantz at insane levels, power a small beer fridge and a lamp so I dont trip going to get a beer.
:scratch2:
diy'r and it looks cheaper than 30,000.00 even if its just a partial
solar system.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial
Now lets see how many watts would I need to power my marantz at insane levels, power a small beer fridge and a lamp so I dont trip going to get a beer.
:scratch2:
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whsh93a
Super Member
Yes - I can see that. In fact - that's the whole point.
The refinance = lower interest rate than the original loan. Cost of new loan is less than keeping the old loan. You save xxx$$ with new loan. You pay for the panels because of that. By refinancing you have essentially given yourself a raise in your monthly salary.
OR - you could refinance for only $200K and, if you had the discipline, bank the difference in interest each month (once you reach around three years into the new loan) until you save enough for the system. That would take a fair time longer for payback but you'd save the interest costs on the $30K.
DH
The refinance = lower interest rate than the original loan. Cost of new loan is less than keeping the old loan. You save xxx$$ with new loan. You pay for the panels because of that. By refinancing you have essentially given yourself a raise in your monthly salary.
OR - you could refinance for only $200K and, if you had the discipline, bank the difference in interest each month (once you reach around three years into the new loan) until you save enough for the system. That would take a fair time longer for payback but you'd save the interest costs on the $30K.
DH
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whsh93a
Super Member
A great (relatively cheaper) source for deep discharge batteries is electric powered warehouse vehicles - like fork-lifts.
You can use "regular" secondary batteries if you are very careful not to discharge them deeply. However, batteries are the Archillie's (sp??) heal for PV systems and one reason so many just use the grid-tie method.
DH
You can use "regular" secondary batteries if you are very careful not to discharge them deeply. However, batteries are the Archillie's (sp??) heal for PV systems and one reason so many just use the grid-tie method.
DH
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usedto
Lunatic Member
There's a big difference between saying creative financing can make a zero difference in monthly outlay, and saying that the system will "pay for itself" in two or three years.
That's along the same lines as the old vaudeville bit:
"Loan me $20, but only give me $10. That way, you'll owe me $10, and I'll owe you $10, so we'll be even!"
That's along the same lines as the old vaudeville bit:
"Loan me $20, but only give me $10. That way, you'll owe me $10, and I'll owe you $10, so we'll be even!"
usedto
Lunatic Member
A USED 36V battery (80%) for my Clark electric forklift is $1200.
I am storing some batteries from a telephone switch that belong to a friend of mine. I don't have the specs handy, but each cell is about 30" tall by about 2' square and weigh 690 lbs each. (Glass cases) He'll sell them for $1500 each if you take them all.
Not hardly cheap. And, don't tell your local fire department you have them!!
lol!
whsh93a
Super Member
I asked a number of friends about this amazing conceptual problem of not being able to see what is going on here (as in "loan me $20, etc.") I was getting a little worried that I was the one who is not seeing the big picture. Everyone of them wondered why it is apparently so hard for some people to see how this works. The people asked this morning included two engineers and an acountant. And - this is not at all creative financing. It is very straight forward
No one is doing the loan me $20.00, etc. bit. The savings are real, the costs are real and the payoff is real.
Maybe someone else can present this in a different way so that the doubters can understand the process and finally see what is happening.
Me, I'm just going to enjoy the summer and bank my extra money
DH
No one is doing the loan me $20.00, etc. bit. The savings are real, the costs are real and the payoff is real.
Maybe someone else can present this in a different way so that the doubters can understand the process and finally see what is happening.
Me, I'm just going to enjoy the summer and bank my extra money
DH
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Me, I'm just going to enjoy the summer and bank my extra money
DH
By all means enjoy your summer and bank that $2.26/month "profit".
Mark W.
Nut house of the Universe
Something not mentioned in this thread to the point of the first 40 posts at least is the weather.
I live in Oregon in the Willamette valley part WHERE it rains a LOT. NO Solar panel that uses direct sunlight to heat water or cook silicon is going to work more then 6 months out of the year. And with a Solar water heater the down time is very hard on the system plus it greatly increases the maintenance.
One day of freezing temps with an overcast sky when the collector is full of water and your ****ED.
MY current hot water heater is electric about 25+ years old has almost 8inches of external insulation wrapped around it. Our Stove is electric. We dry all our clothes with an electric dryer. I run Stereo gear and Lights way more then I should. We heat our house with a Wood Pellet stove. it uses about 3 watts to run the fans it is on from late Oct to mid April 24/7 We used 2.5 tons of pellets this year (a cold year) at a cost of about $240.00 a ton.
by the way the House is a 3 bed 2 bath 1650 sqft build in 1923 and remodeled 3 times. I have over the last 20 years insulated, buffered, (currently building a fully enclosed front porch, Shade trees, White roof, etc.) and we have replaced all but two of the windows now with E rated vinyl.
I have looked into Solar water heating and the cost even for DIY and the maintenance to look after it is just not cost effective for us.
Our average electric bill is $125.00-$135.00 a month.
I live in Oregon in the Willamette valley part WHERE it rains a LOT. NO Solar panel that uses direct sunlight to heat water or cook silicon is going to work more then 6 months out of the year. And with a Solar water heater the down time is very hard on the system plus it greatly increases the maintenance.
One day of freezing temps with an overcast sky when the collector is full of water and your ****ED.
MY current hot water heater is electric about 25+ years old has almost 8inches of external insulation wrapped around it. Our Stove is electric. We dry all our clothes with an electric dryer. I run Stereo gear and Lights way more then I should. We heat our house with a Wood Pellet stove. it uses about 3 watts to run the fans it is on from late Oct to mid April 24/7 We used 2.5 tons of pellets this year (a cold year) at a cost of about $240.00 a ton.
by the way the House is a 3 bed 2 bath 1650 sqft build in 1923 and remodeled 3 times. I have over the last 20 years insulated, buffered, (currently building a fully enclosed front porch, Shade trees, White roof, etc.) and we have replaced all but two of the windows now with E rated vinyl.
I have looked into Solar water heating and the cost even for DIY and the maintenance to look after it is just not cost effective for us.
Our average electric bill is $125.00-$135.00 a month.
usedto
Lunatic Member
I went back and read your posts to make sure I hadn't missed something the first time.
I don't doubt your figures. Without doing the math myself, they appear to be correct. What ISN'T correct is your statement that the system ITSELF pays it's way in a short time. The reduction in interest is making part of the "payoff", but deferring the interest and principal of the house itself pays the other part.
You dismissed an increase in taxes. I did a little research, and in Ft Collins CO the property tax is 1%, with a 2% annual increase. If you did the law abiding American thing and pulled a permit for your $30,000 system, your property taxes should have gone up $25.00 per month, and increase every year after that. If you DIDN'T, then you assume any and all liability for any problems the system might cause. Check your insurance policy about additions without permits.
As far as the credentials of the people you spoke to, I can't comment. I do business with some of the top engineers in the country (LLNL), and some of them can't add 2+3 and come up with 5 twice in a row. Accountants are taught "accepted" accounting principles, and rarely stray from that.
I myself have a double bachelor's degree, managed a credit union for a time, was an auditor for one of the largest motel chains in the US (world), and have successfully run my own business for 28+ years, so I DO have a little experience in the financial world.
There again, I'm only working with the numbers that have been presented in this thread. I'm glad you're happy with your current setup, and hope it gives you may years of trouble free service.:thmbsp:
I don't doubt your figures. Without doing the math myself, they appear to be correct. What ISN'T correct is your statement that the system ITSELF pays it's way in a short time. The reduction in interest is making part of the "payoff", but deferring the interest and principal of the house itself pays the other part.
You dismissed an increase in taxes. I did a little research, and in Ft Collins CO the property tax is 1%, with a 2% annual increase. If you did the law abiding American thing and pulled a permit for your $30,000 system, your property taxes should have gone up $25.00 per month, and increase every year after that. If you DIDN'T, then you assume any and all liability for any problems the system might cause. Check your insurance policy about additions without permits.
As far as the credentials of the people you spoke to, I can't comment. I do business with some of the top engineers in the country (LLNL), and some of them can't add 2+3 and come up with 5 twice in a row. Accountants are taught "accepted" accounting principles, and rarely stray from that.
I myself have a double bachelor's degree, managed a credit union for a time, was an auditor for one of the largest motel chains in the US (world), and have successfully run my own business for 28+ years, so I DO have a little experience in the financial world.
There again, I'm only working with the numbers that have been presented in this thread. I'm glad you're happy with your current setup, and hope it gives you may years of trouble free service.:thmbsp:
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