Sansui 551 Bias Current Adjustment - Question on Service Manual

craigsc

Active Member
Hey folks, have a Sansui 551 I'm trying to restore and I'm having problems with the bias procedure in the service manual. I have my dmm set to ma and get .5 ma on both sides no matter what I do with the vr. I'm guessing I'm just not measuring ma correctly but everything seems to be setup right and it does go to zero on both sides when I power off. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong. I have a pretty basic dmm but?
 
What have you done so far, parts replaced, etc.? Does the receiver work otherwise? Is your meter set for AC or DC ma, should be DC.

Craig
 
So one channel was out so I tested and then replaced the outputs on the left side with onsemis and the driver on that side as well. Have sound on both sides but the left side has a little distortion at higher volumes. Have the bias problem on both sides and yes dmm set to DC ma.
 
John,

Thank you for the fuse suggestion. Was out. So now I can adjust the right "good" channel right to the 20 ma spec. The left channel is sitting at about -180 ma, it adjusts a little but not much. Any ideas now?
 
Were the drivers bad or just replaced for good measure? If they were bad check D01 in the bias circuit. The bias circuit is super simple in this model, a pot and a diode. What did you use for replacements, driver and outputs?

Craig
 
Did the driver just for good measure, replaced driver with a 2SA1013 and the outputs with 2SC1445. I checked that diode and it tests fine.
 
So I went back in and tested the transistors on the left side again. Everything was good except the driver, which was the only one (in addition to the outputs) I had replaced. Didn't have any 1013s on hand so I put a 1220 in there and now it sounds good but I can only adjust the bias current down to about 35 ma instead of the desired 20. Hmm.
 
On the left channel TR09 and TR11 are both drivers you should always replace them in pairs especially if using subs.

Craig
 
Hate to resurrect a dead thread, but I am having the same issue on my 551... right channel can bias perfectly at 20mA, but I can't get the left channel to go below 31mA. Through speakers, the sound out of the left channel is strong but fuzzy, right channel is perfect. Through headphones, both are strong and clear.

My unit has the F-2591 main board, for which there is no schematic. So frustrating!!!

Just about every component on the left side (except a few of the resistors) has been either tested out of circuit, replaced, or swapped with its counterpart from the right side, to no avail.

OP, did you ever get yours working?

Any other ideas on this one? Thanks in advance...
 
Assuming the circuitry is the same on the new board:-

Compare the voltage from TR10 base to TR12 base (on the bad channel) with the good channel, check D01 and VR9 - make sure VR9 hasn't drifted high in value (even when set to minimum). Your description of how it sounds with speakers, and then headphones suggests the output stage has a major fault, suggesting a shorted or open junction in one of the drivers or output transistors, or open emitter resistor perhaps.

With VR9 at minimum resistance that should give you minimum bias, obviously VR9 will be over 40 years old and may now be out of spec'. As you increase the resistance of VR9 so the bias current should increase - now you know how the bias circuit works you should be able to solve it from there. ;)
 
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Thanks, Hyperion! I tested the trimpot and it was out-of-spec on the high side, hitting only 290 on a 330ohm rating. It did drop down to 1.3 ohms when adjusted low, so if I'm interpreting your advice correctly, that should not be the issue.

That said, I had a thought... what if 20mA bias is not the right target for this board? The manual has the specs/adjustments for the F-1509 board, but as I stated above, mine has the F-2591 board, which has different transistors. Is there a way to calculate what the bias should be on this board?

EDIT: Also, just saw that there was another thread with a similar problem, and also no apparent resolution: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/sansui-551-bias-not-coming-down.614032/
 
MWH901, I'm not very good at taking notes on my projects but I believe I went back into and replaced the drivers, TR 9 and TR 11, with a matched pair and it solved the problem.
 
I retested all the drivers and they were well-matched at least as far as my cheap semiconductor tester said. So finally having reached my wits end with this, I decided to test my theory that 20mA was not the right bias value for this version of the board (which again, is different from the one printed in the service manual.)

I was able to get both channels to hold evenly at 45mA, and it sounded phenomenal... L and R channels perfectly clear and strong. Thinking that maybe lower would be better, I took it down to 40mA and played it for a while, and I may be crazy but it did not sound as good. So I took it back up to 45, ran it up to full rated wattage (16WPC) and it performed flawlessly.

If someone with more knowledge can tell me this is a bad solution, I'm all ears... if not, I'm going to call this one FIXED.
 
I retested all the drivers and they were well-matched at least as far as my cheap semiconductor tester said. So finally having reached my wits end with this, I decided to test my theory that 20mA was not the right bias value for this version of the board (which again, is different from the one printed in the service manual.)

I was able to get both channels to hold evenly at 45mA, and it sounded phenomenal... L and R channels perfectly clear and strong. Thinking that maybe lower would be better, I took it down to 40mA and played it for a while, and I may be crazy but it did not sound as good. So I took it back up to 45, ran it up to full rated wattage (16WPC) and it performed flawlessly.

If someone with more knowledge can tell me this is a bad solution, I'm all ears... if not, I'm going to call this one FIXED.

Hey there!, got the same exact problem on a Sansui 551 with the F-2591 board. Are you still happy with your 45mA solution? or did you manage to find another workaround?
thx!
 
Hey there!, got the same exact problem on a Sansui 551 with the F-2591 board. Are you still happy with your 45mA solution? or did you manage to find another workaround?
thx!
Yes, still running very well! No other workarounds... good luck!
 
I have recently been working to repair a Sansui 551 that also has the F-2591 board rather than the F-1509 as documented in the available service manual, and I think I've gotten to the bottom of why there are issues setting bias on this version of the board.

In the F-2591 revision, for some reason R87 is fed from F01 (the left channel power amplifier fuse) and R86 is fed from F02 (the right channel power amplifier fuse) rather than being fed directly from the unregulated 52V input (which itself is already fused by F04 and F05). I'm not sure why this change was made (maybe circuit board layout reasons?) but the end result is that there's a static load of 20-30mA (I expect this is somewhat dependent on the exact unregulated voltage) on the left channel fuse in particular, which completely throws off the documented bias adjustment procedure.

My problem turned out to be something else (corroded capacitor terminal on C38 resulting in basically no amplification in the right channel power amplifier stage), but I got led astray by this strange bias difference while troubleshooting. I tried moving R87 and R86's feed points to the unfused side of the unregulated supply, and sure enough I was able to adjust bias current as expected for the left channel now in addition to the right channel.

Rather than modifying the circuit though (there might be some other reason they redesigned this part of the circuit), the better solution for anybody encountering this problem is to use an alternative procedure for adjusting bias. My experience is that the amp should be set to aux input with no signal (rather than a 1kHz sine as documented in the guide) for the procedure since depending on your meter an incoming signal can affect the current read-out with modern fast digital meters. Volume control seems unimportant; with no input signal, the bias value is basically unchanged from minimum to maximum volume.

Once the radio is on and warmed up, set to aux input with no signal being fed in and speakers unhooked, measure the voltage drop across both power resistors for each channel (this is R71/R73 for the left channel and R72/R74 for the right channel). To clarify, clip your meter leads to the outer ends of each resistor pair, rather than clipping both leads to two terminals of the same component (this means you're measuring voltage across a larger resistance drop from both resistors in series, giving more accurate results).

The nominal bias current value of 20mA from the manual works out to 18.8mV across these two resistors in combination; adjust the bias potentiometer to get a value of about 19mV and then do the same for the other channel. Throughout the procedure, the fuses should be left in their normal position and don't need to be touched.

While it may "work" to set the bias to a higher value as described by MWH901, I expect this is actually creating a bias imbalance between the two channels (since only the left channel has substantial extra load current on the fuse in the revised design) that might affect sound character or distortion, and more importantly it's putting the power regulation circuitry under additional load and those components are already the hottest-running ones in the whole amp by far. For anybody who comes across this, setting the bias by using the voltage drop across the big power resistors in the output stage is definitely the safer option, and the procedure should (I think) work equally well regardless of what revision of the board your Sansui 551 has.
 

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I have recently been working to repair a Sansui 551 that also has the F-2591 board rather than the F-1509 as documented in the available service manual, and I think I've gotten to the bottom of why there are issues setting bias on this version of the board.

In the F-2591 revision, for some reason R87 is fed from F01 (the left channel power amplifier fuse) and R86 is fed from F02 (the right channel power amplifier fuse) rather than being fed directly from the unregulated 52V input (which itself is already fused by F04 and F05). I'm not sure why this change was made (maybe circuit board layout reasons?) but the end result is that there's a static load of 20-30mA (I expect this is somewhat dependent on the exact unregulated voltage) on the left channel fuse in particular, which completely throws off the documented bias adjustment procedure.

My problem turned out to be something else (corroded capacitor terminal on C38 resulting in basically no amplification in the right channel power amplifier stage), but I got led astray by this strange bias difference while troubleshooting. I tried moving R87 and R86's feed points to the unfused side of the unregulated supply, and sure enough I was able to adjust bias current as expected for the left channel now in addition to the right channel.

Rather than modifying the circuit though (there might be some other reason they redesigned this part of the circuit), the better solution for anybody encountering this problem is to use an alternative procedure for adjusting bias. My experience is that the amp should be set to aux input with no signal (rather than a 1kHz sine as documented in the guide) for the procedure since depending on your meter an incoming signal can affect the current read-out with modern fast digital meters. Volume control seems unimportant; with no input signal, the bias value is basically unchanged from minimum to maximum volume.

Once the radio is on and warmed up, set to aux input with no signal being fed in and speakers unhooked, measure the voltage drop across both power resistors for each channel (this is R71/R73 for the left channel and R72/R74 for the right channel). To clarify, clip your meter leads to the outer ends of each resistor pair, rather than clipping both leads to two terminals of the same component (this means you're measuring voltage across a larger resistance drop from both resistors in series, giving more accurate results).

The nominal bias current value of 20mA from the manual works out to 18.8mV across these two resistors in combination; adjust the bias potentiometer to get a value of about 19mV and then do the same for the other channel. Throughout the procedure, the fuses should be left in their normal position and don't need to be touched.

While it may "work" to set the bias to a higher value as described by MWH901, I expect this is actually creating a bias imbalance between the two channels (since only the left channel has substantial extra load current on the fuse in the revised design) that might affect sound character or distortion, and more importantly it's putting the power regulation circuitry under additional load and those components are already the hottest-running ones in the whole amp by far. For anybody who comes across this, setting the bias by using the voltage drop across the big power resistors in the output stage is definitely the safer option, and the procedure should (I think) work equally well regardless of what revision of the board your Sansui 551 has.
 
Thank you for figuring this out and posting. I was very frustrated trying to adjust bias after a driver board rebuild on my 551. Following your revised method worked brilliantly to dial it in.
 
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