tyeeslayer
Super Member
For a Shure V15 Type III. I am currently running a Phanstiehl stylus but am thinking it is time for an upgrade. The price difference is about 30$. What do you think. And yes money is an object.
Shibata or SAS
- Thread starter tyeeslayer
- Start date
flavio81
Turntable technician
"Shibata" is a stylus tip cut shape.
While "SAS" is a complete stylus assembly made by JICO which has the following characteristics:
- "Micro-line" tip shape, arguably superior to the Shibata shape
- Nude stylus
- Square shank diamond
- Boron cantilever, a deluxe cantilever material,
- Special magnet type (which further diminishes the moving mass of the system)
Without knowing the cantilever type and material, and the stylus mounting type, we can't do an objective comparison. What you could ask for, instead, are opinions on users of each one. AFAIK the SAS has its many fans.
SAS is what I use in mine. I have no experience with the other. The SAS is very nice indeed.
Enjoy,
Rich P
Enjoy,
Rich P
tyeeslayer
Super Member
From LPGear
SAS product code SHVN35HESAS
Shibata product code SHVN35SA
These are the two I am looking at.
SAS product code SHVN35HESAS
Shibata product code SHVN35SA
These are the two I am looking at.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Go Jico SAS and don't look back. It's superb quality on tracking and reproduction.
tyeeslayer
Super Member
No, that is more of a consideration when choosing a cart.
bobins08
Celebrating Life
Yes, the V15-III likes a low mass arm (up to 10 grams effective mass). Either stylus in question will match.
beatcomber
AK Member
That's great to know!
I just picked up from Barter Town a V-15 Type III with the original elliptical stylus, which is in unknown condition. I played a few sides with it , and while it tracked OK and didn't do anything 'wrong,' it didn't sound anywhere near as spectacular as everyone says it should. Imaging and detail were mediocre, the bass extension was poor, and the treble was a bit soft, although the mids were pretty nice. Overall it was kind of mushy and it didn't draw me into the music at all. I'm guessing/hoping that the 40-year-old stylus' suspension is just getting tired and/or the diamond is worn.
Before shelling out the bucks for an SAS - and maybe finding that I still am not impressed - I just ordered a $14 EVG made-in-Japan .3 x .7 mil elliptical on eBay, which I should receive this weekend. While I know the EVG won't be the last word in refinement, at least I won't have to worry about the stylus' integrity while evaluating the V-15 III's character. I've done some reading up on past threads, and the general opinion is the EVG is a half-decent cheap option for the V-15 III.
If I like what I hear with the EVG, I'll spring for a JICO SAS.
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malden
Addicted Member
I purchased a JICO VN35 (non-sas) for my Shure V15 type 3. Compared to a NOS Shure, it (JICO) sounded a little livelier and tracked warped records better.
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beatcomber
AK Member
Your description of the JICO sounding more lively matches what I've heard others say about the SAS in particular vs. OEM. Another reviewer said it has more 'air' (= treble extension?) but leaner bass.
beatcomber
AK Member
Good point.
I have both a JICO SAS and a JICO-made EVG elliptical for my M91ED's.
On my lighter, more lithe tonearms (AR-TX and SME 3009 S2 Imp), the SAS is definitely the bomb, but on heavier arms (ie: Pioneer PL-510A, Dual 1019) I found the el cheapo EVG to sound more satisfying.
beatcomber
AK Member
Absolutely!
bobins08
Celebrating Life
God idea --- I think you will appreciate the character of the V15-III with the EVG but you won't really be hearing it all without the SAS. With the SAS you still get the warm sound of the Shure (think of your M91) plus you get clean clear extended highs and a well balanced presentation.
A shop owner in town has a few NOS stylus for his V15-III and he said my Jico SAS blew them away. Not even close in his opinion, which I certainly trust.
The V15-III w/SAS will sound great on your SME 3009 series II tonearm. Be mindful of the loading. R= 47K and total capacitance (including cables, wires, phono stage input, etc) should be in the 400 to 500 pf range. With the SAS installed in my system I hear no difference once it is >320 pf. I keep it at 420 pf just to stay within the Shure spec.
Not saying you will like the V15-III w/ SAS better than your Grado but it should challenge it and it should exceed the M91.
As you now, so much is personel preference and how the system integrates.
My stereo just took a nice step up in performance by replacing tubes in the phono stage. You could come over tomorrow and say, "that cartridge produces much better midrange than I thought" not knowing the new tubes are allowing the better midrange to be heard.
Good luck, Bob
beatcomber
AK Member
Bob - I appreciate your previous post, which I found very informative.
Of that I have no doubt!
I would think that it is important to make a distinction between Shure's standard elliptical and the later hyperelliptical when comparing OEM to the JICO SAS.
That was a concern when I decided to buy the V15-III.
Another AK'er generously allowed me to borrow his V15-III several years ago, back when I was using a modded SL-1200MK2 and external phono preamp. It sounded very bright and thin, no doubt due to too little capacitance.
Now I'm using the SME3009 S2 Improved - which by all reports was designed specifically for the V15-III - with its stock interconnects, which presumably were also optimized for the V15-III. I am also now using the phono stage (modded) in my Fisher 400 which I'm told adds no capacitance of its own.
Despite the compromised state of the OEM stylus it came with, I was relieved to find that the V15-III I just purchased did not sound at all bright in my present system. Whew!
Now we're getting down to brass tacks.
I have been using the Grado Signature 8MR with MCZ stylus upgrade (custom loaded at 32k) for the better part of the past year, and it is a pretty remarkable cartridge. It does an amazing job of pulling apart a stereo mix and placing the individual instruments and voices into a realistic, deep, holographic 3D space, and wonderfully resolves nuance and texture. I truly love what this cartridge can do. (Both Marc Morin and DaveyW, two fellers whose opinions I trust and value, have told me that my Grado combo is comparable in performance to a $600 Grado Sonata wood-body.)
Comparing the V15-III (with compromised OEM stylus) to my Grado:
• Mids are more forward than the Grado
• Bass is less extended than the Grado
• Imaging is just OK, not nearly as deep as the Grado
• Detail is fairly good, but not remarkable
• Recordings that sound thrilling with the Grado just kind of sat there with the Shure
Normally I would just move on, but the V15-III has such a highly respected reputation that I feel that it deserves some more consideration from me - but I'm not yet ready to spend the bucks on an SAS. But almost certainly the old stylus that's on it now is holding it back pretty severely.
Getting rid of the dodgy OEM stylus and swapping in the EVG for some more basic evaluation is the best compromise at this stage. That should hopefully be enough to give me a fairly accurate taste of what this cartridge is capable of, with the understanding that the SAS would bring out its full potential.
Of that I have no doubt!
I would think that it is important to make a distinction between Shure's standard elliptical and the later hyperelliptical when comparing OEM to the JICO SAS.
That was a concern when I decided to buy the V15-III.
Another AK'er generously allowed me to borrow his V15-III several years ago, back when I was using a modded SL-1200MK2 and external phono preamp. It sounded very bright and thin, no doubt due to too little capacitance.
Now I'm using the SME3009 S2 Improved - which by all reports was designed specifically for the V15-III - with its stock interconnects, which presumably were also optimized for the V15-III. I am also now using the phono stage (modded) in my Fisher 400 which I'm told adds no capacitance of its own.
Despite the compromised state of the OEM stylus it came with, I was relieved to find that the V15-III I just purchased did not sound at all bright in my present system. Whew!
Now we're getting down to brass tacks.
I have been using the Grado Signature 8MR with MCZ stylus upgrade (custom loaded at 32k) for the better part of the past year, and it is a pretty remarkable cartridge. It does an amazing job of pulling apart a stereo mix and placing the individual instruments and voices into a realistic, deep, holographic 3D space, and wonderfully resolves nuance and texture. I truly love what this cartridge can do. (Both Marc Morin and DaveyW, two fellers whose opinions I trust and value, have told me that my Grado combo is comparable in performance to a $600 Grado Sonata wood-body.)
Comparing the V15-III (with compromised OEM stylus) to my Grado:
• Mids are more forward than the Grado
• Bass is less extended than the Grado
• Imaging is just OK, not nearly as deep as the Grado
• Detail is fairly good, but not remarkable
• Recordings that sound thrilling with the Grado just kind of sat there with the Shure
Normally I would just move on, but the V15-III has such a highly respected reputation that I feel that it deserves some more consideration from me - but I'm not yet ready to spend the bucks on an SAS. But almost certainly the old stylus that's on it now is holding it back pretty severely.
Getting rid of the dodgy OEM stylus and swapping in the EVG for some more basic evaluation is the best compromise at this stage. That should hopefully be enough to give me a fairly accurate taste of what this cartridge is capable of, with the understanding that the SAS would bring out its full potential.
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