I agree. I did the same thing, putting in a dedicated 20A circuit to the Audio system. I don't understand how putting a fancy power lead between the the wall outlet and the equipment can make a difference - although possibly there could be a difference if the 'old' power cord was of a smaller size wire than the house wiring from the breaker panel. For most homes, you have either 14 gauge (15A) or 12 gauge (20A) el-cheapo house wiring behind the walls, running from the breaker panel to your audio room wall outlet. Regardless of what you do, your AC power feed is nothing more than that.
Shunyata Venom 3 Power Cable...Pretty good!
- Thread starter MWalt
- Start date
I agree. I did the same thing, putting in a dedicated 20A circuit to the Audio system. I don't understand how putting a fancy power lead between the the wall outlet and the equipment can make a difference - although possibly there could be a difference if the 'old' power cord was of a smaller size wire than the house wiring from the breaker panel. For most homes, you have either 14 gauge (15A) or 12 gauge (20A) el-cheapo house wiring behind the walls, running from the breaker panel to your audio room wall outlet. Regardless of what you do, your AC power feed is nothing more than that.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Have you used one of these power cords? If not then I suggest you read the rules here at TOL and excuse yourself. If you have, we look forward to your comments about your experience with them.
Just because you don't understand how it can make a difference doesn't mean it won't. By the sound of your post, it would appear that you haven't tried one.
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
I say this a lot, because the most common argument made by those who reject the possibility of power cords making an audible difference is that they're "the last few feet" after miles and miles of wire from the power plant, plus your house wiring - what's available at the wall outlet simply is what it is, I'll agree with that, but I look at it as the point at which your component is connected to that power supply, at the wall outlet.
This seems like a very possible theory to me because it would explain why I've heard differences between various power cables, and also why I heard very audible differences once I installed an Oyaide SWO-XXX outlet in the wall, which was one of the stranger things I've experienced in hi-fi audio and not something I'd anticipated prior to that.
mayidunk
A man of dubious taste...
Here's a question... If a difference can be heard, can it be measured? And if so, then how would one go about doing that?
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I have a dedicated circuit with with 2 standard hospital grade outlets and 2 aftermarket upgrade outlets and the difference in sound between the 2 sets of outlets is not subtle. Strange, perhaps, but the difference is audible to both my wife and I.
I'd say perhaps, and perhaps we haven't figured out how to measure whatever the difference is. We may not during our lifetimes figure that out. That doesn't mean that the difference doesn't exist. It also doesn't mean that it does exist. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I chose to believe what I and others who listen here in my listening space hear. Cables, power cords and outlets all make a difference.
One of the most incredible demonstrations I've been witness to was when a friend brought over a Box Furniture Company rack. On the surface it looks like a well built wooden rack A conversation with Anthony reveals that the shelves are a sandwich of materials that have been meticulously thought out and rigorously tested for effectiveness. We took a my CD player and then my amp off of my old rack and put them onto the Box Rack...didn't unplug them, just moved them and the change in sound was startling...how? Why? I don't know and probably never will.
Last edited:
sebrof
Super Member
Well, following up like I said I would. But I let the AK community down, I'm afraid.
A few friends and I visit each others house/systems once a month or so, last night it was my turn. My friend brought over his Shunyatas (He just got them new @ $125 each), said they were like the old Copperheads.
Anyway, the unwritten rule is whoever's house it is, that guy never sits in the sweet spot. So we listened to a song, swapped cables, and the guy in the sweet spot said he liked the improvement. Same with one other guy.
But by the time I got in the sweet spot to compare I had had about a half dozen beers and four fingers of Lagavulin and was in no condition to make a call one way or the other. Sounded GREAT, don't get me wrong, but probably had nothing to do with the PCs.
Better luck next time...
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Quite alright. Sounds like you had a good time and that's what matters!
mayidunk
A man of dubious taste...
When it comes to this stuff, I'm too much of a pragmatist. I'm not going to convince anyone of anything, so I'm gonna live, and let live.
Nice photos of a nice system! I can imagine you've had many hours of audio bliss sitting in front of it. That's what it's all about!
signal-dude
Just one good watt.......
Good question and one I wanted to answer myself. So I built the worlds ugliest IEC power cord but it has a definable and measured noise filtering. Take some 16/3 SJ cord and wire it into a metal conduit box, 1900 size, and install a CORCOM 6EHQ1 medical grade line filter in series with the wire.
Yeah, its ugly as sin. Put it on my handmade amp using Ampslab LM60 Moosefet amp modules and sure enough it made a difference in the sound. Cleaner is the best way to describe a hard to characterise sound difference. I use to use a computer grade 18 AWG cord for the amp. About the cheesiest I could find and the amp sounded pretty darn good before the ugly cord was installed.
So I thought there HAS to be a difference in the noise on the + and - 42 volt rails that I HAVE to find. I looked with my 100 Mhz Rigol DS1052E scope and checked it full wideband, 100 Mhz., limited bandwidth at 20 Mhz., and with the digital filtering at 1 Mhz BW and 100 Khz BW filtering.
And dammit if I could not see any difference at all in the noise level of the rail voltage with and without the ugly cord. I spent 4 hours yesterday afternoon looking for something that I KNOW has to be there but could not find it.
And like I said I did and do hear a difference between the 2 cords and I DEOX'ed all connections before to eliminate that very possibility of knocking off some crud on the connections. I always thought that was the answer to the cord sound controversy.
So if its not decreased noise in the power supply then what the heck is it, LOL!!!!
Edit: I also went back and forth with all of the combinations using balanced power out of a transformer and a plain old wall socket of questionable quality and found no difference in the noise with that added variable.
Last edited:
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
This comes back to the question just asked about whether or not we know what or how to measure the differences that "sound like" they're there. I happen to think something is being missed in this area, which is why it's so controversial, but I also happen to think it won't be too long before someone figures it out, frankly.
Also, signal-dude, your avatar is freaking hilarious, and would confuse the hell out of many people, especially if they'd never seen that commercial.
finnbow
The Dude Abides
I'd like to claim complete agnosticism on this issue, but I can't. Here's an analog that underlies my skepticism (substitute audiophile for oenophile in the excerpt below):
In one experiment, he got 54 oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates together and had them taste one glass of red wine and one glass of white wine. He had them describe each wine in as much detail as their expertise would allow. What he didn't tell them was both were the same wine. He just dyed the white one red. In the other experiment, he asked the experts to rate two different bottles of red wine. One was very expensive, the other was cheap. Again, he tricked them. This time he had put the cheap wine in both bottles. So what were the results?
The tasters in the first experiment, the one with the dyed wine, described the sorts of berries and grapes and tannins they could detect in the red wine just as if it really was red. Every single one, all 54, could not tell it was white. In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat.
Another experiment at Cal-Tech pitted five bottles of wine against each other. They ranged in price from $5 to $90. Similarly, the experimenters put cheap wine in the expensive bottles -- but this time they put the tasters in a brain scanner. While tasting the wine, the same parts of the brain would light up in the machine every time, but with the wine the tasters thought was expensive, one particular region of the brain became more active.
In short, we are all far more impressionable than we would like to admit and, in some cases, this trait may be hard-wired (pun intentional) in our brains.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...t-why-we-cant-tell-good-wine-from-bad/247240/
In one experiment, he got 54 oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates together and had them taste one glass of red wine and one glass of white wine. He had them describe each wine in as much detail as their expertise would allow. What he didn't tell them was both were the same wine. He just dyed the white one red. In the other experiment, he asked the experts to rate two different bottles of red wine. One was very expensive, the other was cheap. Again, he tricked them. This time he had put the cheap wine in both bottles. So what were the results?
The tasters in the first experiment, the one with the dyed wine, described the sorts of berries and grapes and tannins they could detect in the red wine just as if it really was red. Every single one, all 54, could not tell it was white. In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat.
Another experiment at Cal-Tech pitted five bottles of wine against each other. They ranged in price from $5 to $90. Similarly, the experimenters put cheap wine in the expensive bottles -- but this time they put the tasters in a brain scanner. While tasting the wine, the same parts of the brain would light up in the machine every time, but with the wine the tasters thought was expensive, one particular region of the brain became more active.
In short, we are all far more impressionable than we would like to admit and, in some cases, this trait may be hard-wired (pun intentional) in our brains.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...t-why-we-cant-tell-good-wine-from-bad/247240/
signal-dude
Just one good watt.......
Yeah, after I wrote that I started to wonder what did I miss? I think I did a pretty good job looking for answers but now am wondering should I have looked far lower in frequency with the digital filters? Maybe go all the way down to 10Khz. and see whats there? Maybe audio frequency noise is getting through the toroid transformer, 35 amp diode bridge, and 127,000 ufds of capacitance on each rail.
I was actually looking for RF EMI and RFI noise and totally missed the possibility of audio noise in the power supply. I assumed that the PSRR of the amps would take care of that.
Now I am thinking the PS rails are not the place to try to see a difference. Maybe looking at the outputs with the inputs shorted would be the way to go. The extra 26 DB of gain of the amps might show up the difference more AC filtering would make.
I had the amp on the bench to lower the output bias from 125 milliamps to 50 to see if there was any difference in sound. But this is unrelated to the test as it was set at 125 all day. Afterwards I lowered it as it was warmed up nicely. I think I like it better at 125 though.
If anyone has any ideas let me know and I'll see if I can check them. As its a major effort to get the amp on the bench I'm thinking next Saturday might work.
Thanks, I nasaled my monitor when I stumbled onto that pic, LOL!!
signal-dude
Just one good watt.......
Exactly Dude, that's why I was looking for the smoking gun, pun intended.
finnbow
The Dude Abides
I suspect a researcher could do much the same test with power cables that the researchers did with wine and listeners would hear a difference between identical cables (dressed up to look different with widely varying price tags). For better or worse, it's human nature.
signal-dude
Just one good watt.......
I agree totally and that's why I was looking for a real and measurable difference. I thought I heard a difference in sound and if I can't find out why then it has to be what you are saying.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
...or most likely not, and far more likely what Dave said.
The issue with this is that people OFTEN pick the less expensive gear. It's almost always people who have little experience with this stuff that think the $$ option is always the one chosen. It isn't.
Mr. Lin
Lunatic Member
Fairly recently Shunyata did some research on the power cord issue, although the more technical AK members criticized it for not being as conclusive as Shunyata claims - I don't know, but you might want to see what they looked at to get an idea of where to go next, possibly.
Similar threads
