Shure M97xE vs Ortofon 2M Red - yet another stupid question

[gusten]

I just looked and it seems that currently Ortofon have 17!! MCs, from the rather low priced high output ones up to the ones with really high figures.
For instance you can get a HO MC-3 Turbo with a nude fine-line needle for around 160Euros. They are actually much cheaper than the MIs. Must try one.
/gusten

 

[catman]

G'day all, some interesting observations. Don, by your reference to 'MI' do you mean 'moving iron'? It is interesting that on the Ortofon website they used to refer to the Super OM series as 'magnetic'. I thought they were 'moving magnet'? A question of definitions perhaps?

I have considerable listening experience with the Super OM cartridge series and whilst they are top notch cartridges with quick, lively and dynamic sound, I find them rather fatiguing and irritating with long term listening unlike my M97xE's that never are, and for that reason apart from their general smoothness they are my favourites.

Your comments on inner groove high frequency roll off are spot on, although interestingly enough many vinyl people are blissfully unaware of this and yes quite rightly as you say, improved stylus profile can effectively compensate for this roll off which is brought about by stylus velocity issues inherent in the vinyl playback system.

Interesting also Don you mention the improved midrange 'definition' of the V15 series compared to the M97xE. It is a fact the M97xE under standard (loading) test conditions does have a noticeable mid range dip. However I find an accentuated midrange highly fatiguing and I suspect this is the main reason for the listening fatigue I encounter with the Super OM series.

Re the 2M Red, my listening observations are one of 'euphonic' niceness with a deliberately tweaked frequency response of a slightly boosted lower bass and slightly recessed midrange, essentially the opposite of the Super OM series. As I've previously said, I find the 2M Red very 'nice sounding' at the expense of accuracy which is important to me even if this sometimes sounds 'bland' and unexceptional. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[automojo]

G'day all, some interesting observations. Don, by your reference to 'MI' do you mean 'moving iron'? It is interesting that on the Ortofon website they used to refer to the Super OM series as 'magnetic'. I thought they were 'moving magnet'? A question of definitions perhaps?

I have considerable listening experience with the Super OM cartridge series and whilst they are top notch cartridges with quick, lively and dynamic sound, I find them rather fatiguing and irritating with long term listening unlike my M97xE's that never are, and for that reason apart from their general smoothness they are my favourites.

Your comments on inner groove high frequency roll off are spot on, although interestingly enough many vinyl people are blissfully unaware of this and yes quite rightly as you say, improved stylus profile can effectively compensate for this roll off which is brought about by stylus velocity issues inherent in the vinyl playback system.

Interesting also Don you mention the improved midrange 'definition' of the V15 series compared to the M97xE. It is a fact the M97xE under standard (loading) test conditions does have a noticeable mid range dip. However I find an accentuated midrange highly fatiguing and I suspect this is the main reason for the listening fatigue I encounter with the Super OM series.

Re the 2M Red, my listening observations are one of 'euphonic' niceness with a deliberately tweaked frequency response of a slightly boosted lower bass and slightly recessed midrange, essentially the opposite of the Super OM series. As I've previously said, I find the 2M Red very 'nice sounding' at the expense of accuracy which is important to me even if this sometimes sounds 'bland' and unexceptional. Regards, Felix aka catman.

I agree with your listening experiences with the M97xE, it appears to work well with a wide range of source material- and of course like any cartridge, your results good or bad, also depend alot on your turntable/arm, as well as your playback electronics.

 

[Mr. Lin]

You will never go wrong mounting the Shure. They were around as the best long before many even knew there was a market. If the 97XE is mounted correctly and broken in you wil hear music you never heard with your Grado. IMO the Grado is over priced, over marketed and tight sounding.

Try it and see.

Strange, I've heard more than a few Grado cartridges from the Black to the Platinum and never did the word "tight" come to mind. I'm afraid I have to agree with those who think the M97XE is boring. Yes, it's neutral, but it's possible to be neutral and not boring too, and when I used the M97XE my system was more than capable of revealing it's qualities.

To the OP, just curious, which Grado are you using? Having heard the two types I would take a Grado any day, but that's just my personal preference.

 

[specialidiot]

To the OP, just curious, which Grado are you using? Having heard the two types I would take a Grado any day, but that's just my personal preference.

Time for an update anyway.

To be clear, the cart that came with the table that I refurbished (Micro Seiki DD-33) is a Grado Gold of unknown age. I have had other Grado's but a lesser F3+ back in the day and more recently, a Green. I've never really had issues with them.

This particular Gold may have some wear, I just don't know.

My listening (with this rig) is near field using Fostex FE127e drivers in an aperiodic (Fonken) enclosure driven by a Pilot SA-232 amp, and a Grounded Grid pre-amp.

While the recent addition of the GG has tightened up things considerably, I still consider the overall characteristic of my system to be slightly laid back. My goal is to stir some pepper into the pot and see what happens. Not scientific at all, really.

I have a Shure M97xE, and now have a 2M Red on loan from Tiny Elvis.

When I was still using a NAD 7020 as both pre and phono stage into the Pilot, I swapped in the 2M Red on Saturday. I had some type of buzz going on, and repeated attempts to reseat the headshell onto the arm and the leads on the cartridge didn't help. So I moved to the Shure and had the same results.

Grrrr. Did I also mention that I don't have a lot of patience for the interminable futzing that this stuff requires?

Sunday evening saw the return of the cover to my GG pre from the powder coater (looks fab btw) so I put it and a Bellari VP129 into the mix. Viola, the buzz is gone and the Shure is putting forth sweet music!

I've been listening to the Shure since Sunday on a variety of music and I'm fairly pleased with it.

Tomorrow evening I plan to move to the 2M Red for a few days.

I will also move my Denon DL-160 into the mix once I'm able to characterize the Ortofon relative to the Shure. Then I'm going to make a decision and stick with it!

Thanks to all for your help and discussion so far, even though some of it is way over my head!

 

[Deofol]

I own the 97 and a Grado green and in my last listening session with my mates the Shure 97 won out.

The Shure was way more detailed and could track some pretty gnarled records where the Grado could not.

Plus it cleans as it plays.

While this is not equivalent to an Ortofon review, its a reference of the Shure vs. te Grado green.

 

[ETI_5000]

G'day all, some interesting observations. Don, by your reference to 'MI' do you mean 'moving iron'? It is interesting that on the Ortofon website they used to refer to the Super OM series as 'magnetic'. I thought they were 'moving magnet'? A question of definitions perhaps?

Yes, it's s moving iron. I'm not sure what the 2M series is, although as 2M signifies the 2 emms in MM, it may be a real MM. According to my user guide for the OM-40, "This cartridge has been designed on the basis of Ortofon's famous VMS (Variable Magnetic Shunt) generating system." That is a moving iron type system, not a moving magnet. See the copy of Ortofon's cartridge type explanation at Decibel Hi-fi here http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/webcontent27.htm , where they give a diagram showing the bit of magnetic material at the end of the cantilever, and the fixed magnets.

Interesting also Don you mention the improved midrange 'definition' of the V15 series compared to the M97xE. It is a fact the M97xE under standard (loading) test conditions does have a noticeable mid range dip. However I find an accentuated midrange highly fatiguing and I suspect this is the main reason for the listening fatigue I encounter with the Super OM series.

While the V15 doesn't necessarily have a louder midrange than the M97xE, or most other MM/MI cartridges, it just seems to have more detail that is missing with other MM cartridges.

Re the 2M Red, my listening observations are one of 'euphonic' niceness with a deliberately tweaked frequency response of a slightly boosted lower bass and slightly recessed midrange, essentially the opposite of the Super OM series. As I've previously said, I find the 2M Red very 'nice sounding' at the expense of accuracy which is important to me even if this sometimes sounds 'bland' and unexceptional.

It should (you'd hope) sound better than the OM series, given that it was designed 20 years later.

-Don

 

[catman]

Thanks Don. Very interesting information. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[specialidiot]

I just spend most of the evening listening to each one for a full playing of my MFSL copy of Wish You Were Here. The CLEAR winner is:
























the Denon.

 

[Fernando]

Wow, Don, that's a mouthful. Very helpful empirical information. Yes, the issue with the 681EEE is not a different interpretation of "stereohedron," but rather that it is incorrectly listed on some sites as stereohedron, even turntableneedles. As Don correctly noted, it is elliptical, however the stylus is .2 x .7 just like the Shure.

The M97xE is not nude. Shure's designation for nude elliptical was "ED."

Howard, I once read on some documents that used to be available at the Shure site that the M97xE was nude. It was a paper comparing the tip masses of various cartridges. The document was removed after the V15 was discontinued. If I remember correctly, the tip mass of the V15V MxR was .18mg while the M97xE was .38 mg. The tip mass of the M97 still compared favorably to the nude Ortofons.

Fernando

 

[RichTassoni]

Ok I'm going to jump in on this thread, I've got a pioneer PL 518 it's my everyday turntable and using a AT 440mlb right now I also have a Ortofon 2m blue and a Signet MC 110E with low miles on it, now I'm eying the Sure 97xE for a difference of sound and just being able to swap out different cartridges when I choose. So for the ones that already own the Sure I'm ready for any info you can give me to purchase the Sure.

 

[mhardy6647]

can one jump into a thread that's been dormant for over nine years?

 

[bobins08]

Ok I'm going to jump in on this thread, I've got a pioneer PL 518 it's my everyday turntable and using a AT 440mlb right now I also have a Ortofon 2m blue and a Signet MC 110E with low miles on it, now I'm eying the Sure 97xE for a difference of sound and just being able to swap out different cartridges when I choose. So for the ones that already own the Sure I'm ready for any info you can give me to purchase the Sure.

Very old thread but new question.

You should be aware that Shure is going out of business. You can still get the M97xE and it will sound much different than the others you listed. If your looking for tonal variety you will get it by adding the Shure to your collection. In addition, you can get high quality replacement styli such as Jico SAS, or LPGear VividLine for the Shure. I think these stylus improve the Shure greatly. Not all agree of course.

 

[tubed]

Right now I'm liking my new M97 for its bass and midrange qualities.
It plays well through my vintage Ohm Acoustics Model I's and Infinity QLS-1.
Taste wise I like it better than my Denon DL-110 which is probably a bit less colored or just not as capable
I recently bought another Shure M97 just in case.

 

[bobins08]

Is Shure going out of business or just out of the cartridge business? I think that they are otherwise healthy, but I don’t really know.

I stand corrected. They are exiting the cartridge business.

 

[welcomdmat]

Ok I'm going to jump in on this thread, I've got a pioneer PL 518 it's my everyday turntable and using a AT 440mlb right now I also have a Ortofon 2m blue and a Signet MC 110E with low miles on it, now I'm eying the Sure 97xE for a difference of sound and just being able to swap out different cartridges when I choose. So for the ones that already own the Sure I'm ready for any info you can give me to purchase the Sure.

Rich -- this thread has a ton of great info. I have referenced it more than once.

You might get more responses if you start a new thread as some folks may not make it all of the way to your question deep on page two.

For the Shure -- I have used a 10 or so different cartridges over the past couple of years. My turntable came with a Shure M97xE. I wanted to try something different, so I bought a 2M red and thought it sounded great. I then upgraded to a blue (stylus upgrade).

Then I had some work done to my turntable as the next upgrade. I had my tonearm rewired, new RCA cables installed, and a couple of other things. Well, I was a little disappointed when I hooked everything back up. The 2M blue just didn't sound right. I pulled the Shure out of a drawer, set it up, and -wow- it sounded really nice.

Since then, I have had the AT 440mlb. I used it for a bit and then A/B tested against the Shure. I ended up back with the Shure. I have never used the Signet.

I have cycled through other carts, I have used the original Shure, the LPGear VL, and the Jico SAS stylus on my M97xE.

I am telling this story only to say 1. I like the Shure M97xE and 2. I like it on my current turntable with its current setup. I should have learned by now, but I continue to be amazed by how (seemingly) little changes impact the sound that comes out in the end.

I recently changed my amplification (and phono stage in the same package), and I know that I need to go through the cartridge game again because of that change in the chain. No other change in my system has had the impact that that tonearm rewire/ RCA work did.

I think the Shure is still a reasonably priced cartridge. The stylus it comes with is perfectly nice, and there are replacements easily available. I would give it a try since -- as another member said -- it will sound different than the other cartridges you have.

 

[RichTassoni]

I stand corrected. They are exiting the cartridge business.

Thanks good information to just stay with the quality cartridges I already have, but I will keep options open in the near future for another cartridge to add to my collection in the 250 to 350 range. I did kind of wonder that just looking at the Sures.

 

[SSaxdude]

Shure is existing the cartridge business. I recently asked someone who works at Shure (their HQ is nearby) why they were leaving and they said that it wasn’t worth it to them based on the cost of production. I asked them why Audio Technica was able to keep making cartridges at affordable prices and their response was that Audio Technica was just more committed to it.

Back to the thread, if you really want a different sound for your turntable I would look at Shure’s DJ carts. You get the warm Shure sound and better low end (IMO) than the stock M97xE.

 

[bobins08]

Thanks good information to just stay with the quality cartridges I already have, but I will keep options open in the near future for another cartridge to add to my collection in the 250 to 350 range. I did kind of wonder that just looking at the Sures.

To clarify I did not say do not buy the Shure. I said it will give you a difference in sound compared to what you have. Whether you like the difference is up to you of course.

As for Shure leaving the cartridge business, I just want to repeat that there are stylus out there to replace the stock Shure, and some of us like the replacements a lot. So unless you absolutely love the stock Shure there is no shortage of good replacements.

You have AT440mlb, Ortofon 2M Blue, and Signet. You are looking for a different sound and you will definitely find different house sounds from the Shure M97xE or you can research the Grado Black 2 and Nagaoka offerings.

Good luck.

 

[Rybeam]

Get a SAS stylus for the Shure. I did and it opened it up and made it a giant killer IMO.