Sibilance / disortion

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by tw1st, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. malden

    malden Super Member

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    Well, you've just added one more variable to the already complex equation. Maybe it's time to let it go...:)
     
  2. malden

    malden Super Member

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    VN-3 ? Is that for a V15 cartridge? Which one, type 1,2,3,4 or 5?

    You compared a Shure M97HE cartridge to a Excell ES-28..... what is a Excell ES-28?
     
  3. tw1st

    tw1st AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    VN-3G is for a V15 III, but I would use it on my Type IV.

    I compared the Excel to the ML120HE - not a very fair comparison pricewise, but I was told that Excel is a Japanese OEM manufacturer that makes Hana cartridges. The ES-28 is the same as a Sanyo MG-28, and is NOS with a .7 mil conical.

    Like I said, I know it's only one sample so I'm not drawing sweeping conclusions from it.
     
  4. malden

    malden Super Member

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  5. gusten

    gusten Addicted Member

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    Nowadays I use nearly always a nude 0,2/0,7mil needle. It just does everything good. Low distortion, very good freq response, no IGD, tracks overall fine, not fuzzy. Also I have several of them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  6. freQ(*)Oddio

    freQ(*)Oddio Riding Eternal Tracks on a Hot Wired Train . Subscriber

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    i have 0 sibilance/ distortion. there is a difference between a good setup and a perfect setup, a good setup will get sibilance, a perfect setup will not have these issues simple as that, if you own a table with no VTA adjust you arent going to ever get rid of this problem , unless you get lucky with a cart height, The vta in a sl1200, you can dial out sib carefully with a record playing, looks like a slight angle with the mount being just a slight listening adjustment higher, removes sib, some of the $500 range belt tables i see from the new manuf, actually come slightly higher on the cart end, and thats it, thats what you get unless you are a tweaker that will make a shim like some of us would, all sib and distortion are complaints from tables with no vta adjust, so the cart even gets blamed, like the ortofon red with the project debut. you can see the bad vta angle, its not the cart, its not the table, its lack of adjustments like anti skate? VTA, trusting premounted cart align, no weight markings on the counter weight and guessing on these adjustments, how much diff can these adjustment make with speakers hooked to a source thats almost invisible and needs to be adjusted perfectly by listening? impossible
     
  7. jrtrent

    jrtrent Super Member

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    I don't think those issues are acceptable, but the only times I've experienced them proved to be stylus-related, normally when trying out an after-market or NOS stylus (though I once had a Grado Green1 stylus start having issues after 6 months; the dealer confirmed no excessive wear or build-up of gunk, but it just wasn't performing; a new stylus solved the problem). Even the $29 Audio Technica CN5625AL (purchased brand new, when my local dealer had just gotten in a fresh shipment from Audio Technica), with its .7 mil bonded conical tip tracking at 2.25 grams, was free of those problems. At present, I use an M97xE on a Rega RP3, and there is no hint of mistracking, distortion, or excessive sibilance (and this has been true of all four N97xE styli I have used so far in this combination).
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  8. DesertTwang

    DesertTwang Active Member

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    My Pioneer PL-540/ML440a combo is anything but high end, but I have not experienced sibilance on any of my records, ever. :dunno:
     
  9. DesertTwang

    DesertTwang Active Member

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    With all due respect, Sir, my experience with my tt (no VTA adjustment) seems to suggest that this statement is not accurate. No sibilance ever, at least to my ears.
     
  10. freQ(*)Oddio

    freQ(*)Oddio Riding Eternal Tracks on a Hot Wired Train . Subscriber

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    Congrats yours stylus and cart is certainly at the right angle.
     
    DesertTwang likes this.
  11. freQ(*)Oddio

    freQ(*)Oddio Riding Eternal Tracks on a Hot Wired Train . Subscriber

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    li
    a i stated in the post context, "unless you get lucky with cart height" that would be you.
     
  12. gusten

    gusten Addicted Member

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    Sibilance is needle cut to most part, the rest is if something is very wrong.
     
  13. gusten

    gusten Addicted Member

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    That has very little to do with sibilance.
     
  14. fiddlefye

    fiddlefye AK Subscriber Subscriber

    I keep reading about sibilance/IGD distortion problems and I certainly believe folks experience them, but in 40-odd years of playing vinyl I've yet to personally experience either. Just lucky? I dunno.
     
  15. Balifly

    Balifly Listening Subscriber

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    Just precise. :rolleyes:

    In your set up.
     
  16. fiddlefye

    fiddlefye AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Perhaps so. I've always tried to take some care in getting it all right. A good protractor is your friend and using an arm that allows for VTA adjustments and such sure healps as well.
     
  17. Balifly

    Balifly Listening Subscriber

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    IGD in LPs are more common in my experience, due mostly to previous user created damage. :dunno:
     
  18. Wildcat

    Wildcat "Line and Bubble" (Pete Turner, R.I.P.) Subscriber

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    To me, it is completely unacceptable, and it boggles my mind how some others who listen to vinyl cannot hear it. I've even purchased LPs that were played on lesser styli that are now permanently damaged, and the sellers can't even hear the damage. To cover that half of the equation, I try to buy new sealed vinyl whenever possible.

    The raw truth of it all--only the "line contact" type of stylus tip can fit in the high frequency grooves, especially as you get towards those inner grooves. (These types may have names like MicroRidge, Micro Line, Van den Hul, Replicant, Shibata, etc..) A conical or elliptical are too "fat" and will mistrack, since the "waves" cut into the record are smaller/tighter than the styli trying to track them. Likewise, too much effective tip mass will not allow the stylus to accelerate fast enough, and also cause mistracking, as will a suspension that is too stiff. There are illustrations online that show the various shapes, and their advantages.

    And never rule out the fact that even with the best tracking cartridge on the planet, so much used vinyl today is unacceptably worn, and will sound distorted despite what is being used to play it back with. I see this more now today than I did 20 and 30 years ago. The vinyl can look clean; you cannot see groove wear (aka groove burn) without a microscope.

    The best tracking cart I've heard in the very recent past is from DS Audio, which uses an optical generator for the sound. Internally it uses LEDs, a mirror and light sensors to create the electrical signal; since there is no magnet, iron or coil attached to the stylus, it has extremely low moving mass. The system I heard it through was not to my liking, but the vinyl playback was unlike anything else I heard at the show. Too bad it is so darned expensive, as you have to buy their specific phono stage that will also power the LEDs in the cartridge.
     
  19. DesertTwang

    DesertTwang Active Member

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    Oh, ok. That makes sense.
     
  20. willboy

    willboy Active Member

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    UK
    Am I correct in thinking that sibilance on some records is actually inherent in the recording, thus not due to stylus type, inaccurate set-up, or groove damage in used records? The original 'Trinity Sessions' by The Cowboy Junkies on the Cooking Vinyl label being a prime example
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017

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