Small square sized room and dipoles.....

[Bigboi33]

A few thoughts running through my head at the moment and curious if our resident experts can help out. I'm playing with room treatments with a friend who has a similar layout as me. Like some of us here, a small room is the best we have at the moment. The worst part is that it is square shaped.

I could be wrong but from what I have researched and read, I understand that square rooms are not the best acoustically and do not have the best acoustic properties . Please understand that I am not an acoustic expert and that I am open to any suggestions/opinions and willing to experiment.

It's not fun, getting stuck with the smaller room. My old house had a basement where I could have all the fun I wanted and I miss it so much .

Details about the rooms:
10x11 w/8ft ceiling
Short side are bare walls, one long side has a 5 foot wide window the otherside a 5 foot closet
The listening couch is directly against the rear wall for both of us.
And the answer is Yes, we both own cookie cutter homes in the same neighborhood (please don't judge )

Speakers:
Mine: Acoustat Spectra 1100
His: Martin Logan's Sequal
Neither of us want to change speakers or downsize. I have three years before my boys are out of the house (I'm praying at least) and I get the big room. My buddy has a few more years longer to wait than I, but pretty much same scenario.

For LF, we are currently putting together some corner bass traps for the front wall and for one corner of the rear wall. Our issue right now is HF & MF....

What is the best way to control a square room? For HF & MF, more focus on absorption or more on diffusion?

But even more so, how do you tackle a small room while using dipoles meant for a much bigger room? According to what I read here, diffusion should be used with dipoles. But what if you are in a small room? Is more absorption better due to the speed the rear wave will reach the listener in a small room?

Thank you all in advance!

 

[JoeESP9]

Although I've been using dipolar speakers since 1976 I've been fortunate in that I've had decently sized rooms for them. So, I can't offer any help other than my best wishes that you solve your positioning problem. As for room treatments I suggest bass traps in the corners and absorbing panels at the first reflection points as a start.

 

[GuyK]

...As for room treatments I suggest bass traps in the corners and absorbing panels at the first reflection points as a start.

This is where I'd start as well. Next, I'd think about absorbent panels behind the listening seat. And try to get the speakers as far away from the walls as the room will allow, which may not be terribly far since space is so limited.

 

[DeeCee]

Been there (without dipoles, however)... In a pinch you can try setting things in a diagonal manner; this helped a lot if you can manage it.

 

[Bigboi33]

So far we have gotten the ROXUL and lumber for the frames. Gonna work on these during the week. Hopefully, things will be ready for the weekend.

 

[sqlsavior]

So, how's it going?

I'm interested in what you did and whether it helped...

 

[JoeESP9]

How are things going?

 

[Bigboi33]

Sorry for the delay everyone!
Life and family got in the way this past week. The kiddo's started school so it's been banana's!

To be honest with you all, I have no science behind what I am doing here. I am merely going off of what I have read here and on various other sites. I have also been reading up on several articles written by acoustic experts. However I lack the experience, gear and expertise so for now I'm just using my ears here.

So far, we have been able to finish up a few panels. The four I have finished up are looking great and have already made a noticeable difference. Two have been placed on the wall the couch is up against. The other two, are directly behind the speakers. A lot of the harsh high end I was hearing has toned down quite a bit. I still need to remove the mirror closet and put up a curtain of some sort. I think that may be what is causing some of the hardness I am hearing. The biggest thing I noticed is how much tighter the center stage focus is now. The soundstage however isn't as clear as the center. Hence, the thought of killing of some more secondary reflections ( I think that's what it is? Please correct me if I'm wrong).
I was also able to pick up a few diffuser panels from a local recording studio. I'm hoping this might help open the room up a bit.

As for the bass, we're honestly still scratching our heads with the best approach for bass traps. At first, we thought it would work cutting the insulation in triangles, then stacking them in the corner, similar to what many here have done. However, we quickly realized how much space it swallowed up. So we are looking at a different solution. Right now, I'm toying with the idea of making smaller triangles but very unsure how effective it may come out to be. I've been looking at making some tube traps to see if that may take less space. I don't think I may need more than two really as the bass has cleaned up quite a bit with just the panels alone. I think they may be trapping a little bass as well due to the way we built them out. I left about a 3/4 lip so I can hang them easily. On another site, I was told this can help with the bass. Again, not sure about this scientifically but my ears definitely notice the bass is more defined.

Now despite all of this, I still felt like the room is still going to be an uphill battle. A few things I'm starting to understand and learn here:
1) I still feel like the speakers were over pressurizing the room during some music peaks above 90db. I normally don't listen that loud but sometimes I like to crank it a bit for other types of music when the mood strikes. I learned here that it is now a high possibility that my 6ft tall electrostats are to big for the room. Can I make it work? I'm not sure on this. I may ended up with treatments everywhere just to have them sound the way they should. Not sure I like the idea of having treatments everywhere and no place to put my music.

2) Acoustic treatments are a must have! One of the first things I noticed after putting up the panels is how high I'm turning up the volume now. Prior to the panels I didn't have to crank it much to get to 90db. Now I have to go three-four notches up on the volume to get up to 90db. My best explanation is that the sound was bouncing everywhere in the room and adding to the decibel level. I think this may have been happening in the mid-hi frequencies? Either way, to my ears the panels (although still not enough) have made a very noticeable improvement to the clarity of the speakers.

3) It isn't easy trying to figure this stuff out on a budget. I have high respect (always have) for those that spend lots of time and money into "tuning" a room. Right now I have to settle for my lowly ears. If anything, I now understand why some very serious audiophiles build the room around the speakers or build a room and then implement the gear. The room is a HUGE part of the equation!

One other idea I've been toying with is trying out a pair of smaller speakers that I found while cleaning up the garage to build the panels. I thought they were long gone. I still even have the stands that came with them. I remember them being fairly bright and fatiguing to listen to but I think it may have been due to the receiver I used. Might give it a shot and see how they perform with some better gear. It's kind of a blessing honestly as I did not want to spend any extra money on speakers. This helps me find out if my assumption about my speakers being to big for the room is true. If this turns out to be true....then I may have to reason with the wife about getting something smaller BUT I'm keeping my Acoustats no matter what!

Any suggestions/comments on my thoughts are always welcome. I will also do my best to post up some pics this afternoon to give everyone an idea of what I'm working with. Thank you! to all of you who have been following my thread. It's very much appreciated. Also a big thank you to all of you here on AK!

 

[Bigboi33]

Big speakers in a small room usually does not work. Especially dipoles. I would suggest smaller speakers.

Corners treatments should go up to the ceiling. A suggestion for the the corners - cheap fiberfill body pillows and some cheap slip covers.I have them hung with picture hangars and big clips.

Hi Botrytis,

That looks like a great idea! I never thought of using some pillows. I'm definitely going to look into that. Pretty much the same concept of a bass trap so it should give me an idea of how much I will need. Thanks for the great idea.

And I do agree in the regard to dipoles in a small room. Especially a square one at that. It's very difficult trying to calculate where and what type of treatment is needed. Not to mention, I have found some conflicting info when doing research. Some say to use more absorption and to not bother with diffusion. But, others say it's better to diffuse the first reflection point and use absorption in all the other common areas. I can only try and see if helps or not. Now, if my solution is to get smaller speakers, I may just have to bite the bullet. The friend I'm helping out is beginning to get the same impression. However, he has much more invested into his system than I do. So, he is a bit sad knowing his ML's may not work in his room.

 

[sqlsavior]

You probably already know that both of your speakers need to be out into the room a fair amount. Do you have them out from the wall behind them by four feet or so?

You can get pillows at Walmart for $4 each, btw.

 

[drillher]

Are pillows enough for bass traps?I read that tube traps need to be at least 16" in dia.Did you position your sofa based on the position that provides the best bass at the listening position?The sofa against the back wall may not be the best spot for bass.

 

[sqlsavior]

11 feet is 103 Hz
10 feet is 113 Hz
8 feet is 140 Hz

Although dipoles are said to excite room modes less than box speakers, you may have more luck with either a parametric equalizer (old way), or a digital signal processor (DSP - new way), to reduce the relative signal strength in that frequency band to compensate for the room re-inforcement and resonances.

This is assuming you don't like the quality of the bass response you're getting now, on which you haven't really commented...

Listening almost near-field should help in general with the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound. Keeping the volume down perceptually accomplishes the same thing. From your comments, you've experienced quite an improvement already.

 

[Bigboi33]

Hi Everyone,

It has been a while since I have been on AK. I had lost someone close to me since I was last on here. I ended putting heavy focus on to my family and have not really paid much attention to my system. With that said I am back and getting back into the swing of things. I then realized I left this thread hanging and figured it would be good to update with a few things I have done. My wife is encouraging me on this as well.

A little bit after I built the panels (last August 16') I was able to get some pretty good results. I had chunky corner traps in both of the front corners, traps in the rear left corner, panels on the front wall, panels on the back wall, and at the first and second reflection points. I also tried to borrow diffuser's from a friends studio. The sound was getting better but at this point I had received the bad news of our families loss and I just let it all go. I locked the door to the room (in case the kiddos get adventurous) and walked away. Around the holidays I ended up packing away the Acoustats along with the system and room treatments. I however left the record albums on their shelves. I didn't want them to get damaged. It was kind of weird honestly, having a ton of records but no turntable or system in sight.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I ran into my good friend Jake. He is the neighbor I mentioned about earlier in this thread. We got to talking about our systems and found out that he had sold his Martin Logan's over the holidays in favor of a vintage setup. He says along with the room treatments he's never been happier. I asked why he sold the Martin's and he said he was having a hard time trying to control the sound. He found the room treatments much more effective with smaller speakers compared to the tall Martin Logans. For him, it also wasn't worth it to lose so much space to bass traps, acoustic panels, and diffusers all over the place. He wanted room for his record albums too.

A few days later my wife give me a surprise. See here for full story: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....y-life-my-everything-an-audio-romance.756926/
Warning it's a little corny..

I now have Wharfedale Evo2-20's in the room singing away. I am now also experiencing the same thing Jake has experienced. I am finding it is much easier to control the sound coming from a smaller speaker. I really have no clue why. Right now I have panels at the first reflection point, the middle back wall, and on the front wall behind the speaker. These smaller 3.5 foot Wharfedales sound much smoother and easier to listen to at mid to high volumes than the acoustats. The only difference I noted is it does not have the lifelike size of the voice that the Acoustat's have. With the six foot plus Acoustats you can damn near tell the height of the singer. With the Wharfedales it is only possible in really good recordings.

Another thing I have notice is with dynamics. Maybe someone here can explain? I notice that with both speakers the best dynamics occur betweem 85-89db Cweighted with 89db peaks. Anything higher 90db+ and the dynamics get congested like a crushing wave. I'm sure that has to do with the room?
I'm fairly new to room acoustics so i couldn't tell you. I was told by a dealer salesman that it isn't possible to get clean sound at 90db+ in such a small room. He said it would require a large amount of resonance reinforcement and absorption. Not to mention there would not be enough listening distance to get a flat response. Whatever that means.

Otherwise, I'm enjoying a very pleasant and balanced presentation. Low to high volume is a now a pleasure for me depending on my mood. I have very tightly focused sound with a natural presentation. I also don't feeling like I'm in some kind of crazy room with panels everywhere. The best part is the room feels bigger. Honestly I felt like the bass traps were make thing the room feel smaller. Not in terms of function but aesthetically. I haven't tried yet to see if it will make a big difference. I am toying with the idea of using some tube traps instead. We shall see. But for now, I'm enjoying my tunes.