So you want to biamp (or triamp) using a DSP eh?

Alobar

Addicted Member
So anyway, thought it would be nice to have a thread going about, all of which is in the title^^! Biamping! This isn't really such a common thing BTW other than for subs which I would like to take out of this thread as that subject has been written about plenty already.. . I think most speakers probably wouldn't allow bi or triamping anyway, but many do, including my JBL L200's. If you own such speakers that will, the improvement in clarity, imaging could be very substantial (as it has been in my case).

I still feel there is a lot to learn about this rather vast subject so I would like to hear how others have done this, the equipment used, how they went about driver protection of the mid and or HF drivers. How they adjusted the digital xover points, the amplifiers used.. And the dangers of blowing things if you incorrectly hook a driver up, or punch in a PEQ that didn't get a - in a 12 gain setting! Setting PEQ's.. This is not a place that will tolerate typo's very well (ask me how I know).. And REW software..

Basically Anything to do with DSP's and bi or triamping! I'll tell my tale in a following post in a bit!
 
This all started for me last summer when an AK pal @nedseg finally convinced me to replace the LF drivers in my speakers (he has the same exact model JBL I do and also has owned them since new) with a true modern day driver out of the JBL 4367 in fact. They were a "perfect fit" for the L200' from a physical size bolt pattern way and to a cab volume/port size diameter and length the size similarity between the L200 and 4367 was really close.. Anyway it all worked way better than either of us could have dreamed!

But the 2216Nd1 was not fully happy with the existing passive crossover in the L200. That was when I decided to biamp using at the time the MiniDSP 2x4HD. The results were pretty outstanding, especially for the LF driver which was finally not being veiled by the old passive crossover anymore. I was able with some PEQ manipulation, get the frequency response down th 24hz and flat (+/- 4db to 20khz)..

After the MiniDSP 2x4 was added I ran them for months, with just the MF and HF playing off the same amp with the passive xovers in place. But then I decided to switch over to 3 separate amps (triamp) and that required a new DSP. I went with the MiniDSP 4x10HD although there are a few others in my price range I could have gone with, I knew more about the MiniDSP interface, so was a bit more familiar to me from my experience with the 2x4HD.

One thing that is vital important for triamping and eliminating passive crossovers without destroying a driver or drivers by sending it the wrong frequency is a good way to ID speaker cables so a mixup is much less likely.. Here is how I did it: Using heat shrink in different colors is probably the best way although electric phasing tape in different colors would work too. All cables are marked the same on each end. In the picture, the blue shrink tube closest to the end indicates which amplifier goes to which driver, and the red and green indicates left and right speaker. In my case blue means the mid range. I have green as the HF, and black as the LF with the same red and green for left/right speakers.
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Then of course the same level of vigilance is needed to make damn sure the RCA cables (in my case) were coming from the correct output on the DSP to the correct amp it is meant to go to. But that is a lot easier than speaker cables as in my case the MiniDSP is right there within a few feet of the 3 amplifiers.

Then the passive crossover is taken out of the system and protection caps should be installed.. I found help in a JBL chart and from a helpful member here as to which size is needed to protect the driver from harm, without filtering out the normal lower frequencies that is within the drivers range.. In my case these caps were used based on driver inpedence, and frequency. A 50uf on the mid range compression driver filters somewhere down around 1000hz which is just below my planned crossover point. The 6uf cap is for the tweeter. The resistors go parallel across the driver to shunt a reactive component (as JBL describes it).

Then once the caps and resistors were in place, it was time to set up the crossovers in the DSP. This is done with all amps switched off! Before that can be accomplished, the routing (which input goes to which outputs) has to be set up.
In this case I used Analog in Right channel to have its outputs connected to output 1 (LF) output 3 (MF) and output 5 (HF). And out 2, 4, and 6 are the corresponding lleft channel outputs for LF, MF, And HF.

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Now to the crossovers.. This clip shows the LF crossover for channel 1 which is the Right side showing the cut off frequencies for high pass and low pass. The "link enabled" box is checked so all settings are linked and copied to channel 2 (Left side LF driver)
This is done for each driver, with the HF having its low pass filter disabled.
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Once the crossovers are set up, and everything is triple checked for being hooked up correctly, its time to switch on the amplifiers and rough set their outputs if your amps have them, or the outputs can be set within the DSP if they don't. The way to do this is with a calibrated mic at the listening position.
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Then using software and the mic (I use REW) set the output level of the input to the DSP such that it is within the range of the calibrated mic so that REW can make a good distortion free frequency sweep from 20 to 20,000 (since my speakers are full range). Then by using the PEQ,s you can manually set them to better flatten the frequency response, or let REW come up with PEQ's for you. If you let REW do the PEQ's it will be a good start but likely you will want to do more manually at that point by editing one, run the sweep, see if it helped.. IOW, trial and error..
I am still not quite finished but here is my latest FR curve showing +/- 5db from 23hz to 20khz. The good news is I don't have to try to sneak a pair of subs past the wife into the living room! These speakers are now capable, thanks to the new woofers of frequencies well into what is considered sub range!
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Great work @Alobar. I've wondered about petnapping, no make that pent-amping, my DQ-10's using the mini-DSP's. One of the things that's stumping me is how to size the amplifiers and/or fuses for each driver. How did you go about doing that?
 
Great work @Alobar. I've wondered about petnapping, no make that pent-amping, my DQ-10's using the mini-DSP's. One of the things that's stumping me is how to size the amplifiers and/or fuses for each driver. How did you go about doing that?
Yeah, there is a chart by JBL that is a guide for protection caps which is based on driver impedance as well as frequency which is to be at least 1 octave below the electronic crossover.. I got most of the info from this LH thread Electronic crossovers for the L300
The tricky part is to determine what the actual impedance is on the JBL stuff as ofter the drivers will say 16 ohm but really be 8 ohm like my mid range driver was. Anyway, it really helps having the knowledge base on these boards! I would have had a lot harder time without those willing to help!
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As for the size of amp needed, I just put the biggest amp I had on the LF as it uses the most power. The other drivers are easier for smaller rated amps to drive especially since they all have a set frequency to deliver. My setup has 170 wpc amp on the LF, and a pair of 60watt Yamaha's driving the MF and HF.
 
Nice write up Alobar. Only comment I'll add is that the draw for me to active crossovers on speakers is that it eliminates all the garbage between the amp and speakers. Thus, adding capacitors and fuses is not an option to fulfill my goal. I've had bi- tri- and tetra-amped systems since the late 70s, and I've never had a cap or fuse inline. And, I've never had a single failure in any system. Without all those protections, it is important to find amps that turn on and off cleanly (no thumps, whumps, or pops).

I have had wiring screwups on my part. I once had L & R midrange swapped. Took a long time to figure out what was wrong with that picture. Another time I had the subwoofer amp and woofer amp swapped. I turned it on, started a song, turned it up, and was wondering why so much dust was shooting out the ports of the woofer. I now use a more sane approach and turn on each amplifier and verify its proper band is going to the proper driver before turning on the next amp. This, of course, is only necessary after initial hookup of the system.

Oops, I'm sorry, I mentioned subs. (Hangs head, walks away.)
 
Nice write up Alobar. Only comment I'll add is that the draw for me to active crossovers on speakers is that it eliminates all the garbage between the amp and speakers. Thus, adding capacitors and fuses is not an option to fulfill my goal. I've had bi- tri- and tetra-amped systems since the late 70s, and I've never had a cap or fuse inline. And, I've never had a single failure in any system. Without all those protections, it is important to find amps that turn on and off cleanly (no thumps, whumps, or pops).

I have had wiring screwups on my part. I once had L & R midrange swapped. Took a long time to figure out what was wrong with that picture. Another time I had the subwoofer amp and woofer amp swapped. I turned it on, started a song, turned it up, and was wondering why so much dust was shooting out the ports of the woofer. I now use a more sane approach and turn on each amplifier and verify its proper band is going to the proper driver before turning on the next amp. This, of course, is only necessary after initial hookup of the system.

Oops, I'm sorry, I mentioned subs. (Hangs head, walks away.)

That's OK on the subs. Just wanted to keep the thread more about driving speakers themselves without passive crossovers. Biamping and triamping really doesn't seem to be that common among the home stereo group, probably for good reason being it adds a lot of "stuff" into a living room decor which takes a greater importance these days..

Yeah I thought briefly about running without cap protection but these drivers are 45 years old now and getting difficult and expensive to source and replace. Keeping the cap values so their influence remains an octave lower is probably a compromise due to the varying nature of driver impedance while playing music. Some of the caps filtering probably does start to get into the crossover pt range a little too due to the slope? I am now veering into areas I know nothing about other than speculating however!

All I can really say is getting rid of the passive crossovers has been almost as dramatic of an improvement as getting the ear wax out of a plugged ear cleaned out! The detail is really something.. unfortunately so is the more revealing nature too...
 
Yes, I do want to bi or tri amp. Thanks for posting, I am hoping more people will share their knowledge and experience for others to learn from. I was just daydreaming about building some speakers and in particular the crossovers, this seems like a great way to try different points without building 10 different iterations of a crossover. At least for a trained monkey like me. Now what was I searching the forums for? So easy to get sidetracked on this site.
 
Yes, I do want to bi or tri amp. Thanks for posting, I am hoping more people will share their knowledge and experience for others to learn from. I was just daydreaming about building some speakers and in particular the crossovers, this seems like a great way to try different points without building 10 different iterations of a crossover. At least for a trained monkey like me. Now what was I searching the forums for? So easy to get sidetracked on this site.
Absolutely! DSP would really be extremely helpful with building new speakers I would think.
 
So in the past few weeks I have added another improvement step to the signal chain, that of removing a DAC/ADC conversion from the signal chain. And the preamp no longer is in use either.

Before, it looked like this: USB digital from PC> Modi3DAC> Analog RCA to the Kenwood 700C preamp> DSP where it gets converted back to Digital (ADC)> Signal processed and back to analog> to amplifiers.

Now it goes from the USB to a USB TOSlink converter> optical to MiniDSP and processed analog RCA outputs to the power amps. This way there is only one DA conversion process instead of 3, and no preamp.

Here is how the routing is changed for digital input to the MiniDSP: Note both ways are now hooked up physically at the same time so I can still play the TT or Tuner through the system just by changing the config from one with digital inputs set up to one with analog inputs..

On Config 1 I use this for the turntable etc:
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On Config 4 I have all the analog outputs switched off that corresponded to analog inputs and the analog outputs are switched on, corresponding just to the digital inputs, and I have kept the outputs the same DSP and crossover settings.
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Now it goes from the USB to a USB TOSlink converter> optical to MiniDSP and processed analog RCA outputs to the power amps. This way there is only one DA conversion process instead of 3, and no preamp.
Do you hear a difference this way, or was this just to clean up the signal path, or for source switching?
 
Do you hear a difference this way, or was this just to clean up the signal path, or for source switching?
Well that's a good question. I have been making quite a few changes of late that has all contributed to significant improvements. Usually I either like to give it some time between changes like these or have a way to a/b test it to see if I can hear the difference that way.

I haven't figured out a way to a/b this change yet but my gut tells me this was also quite significant in the fine details of familiar music. I think just getting rid of the ADC alone should be a good step up as those circuits are harder to accomplish their function as I understand it than a DAC is.

Getting rid of the preamp probably didn't do much to improve in my case because while it is 40 plus years old, it is a highly regarded one that has been completely rebuilt by a competent tech.

The DAC I have (Schiit Modi 3) is not a TOTL one at $99 but it does sound good for its price point certainly, but eliminating it from the path couldn't hurt either..
 
I have been making quite a few changes of late that has all contributed to significant improvements. Usually I either like to give it some time between changes like these or have a way to a/b test it to see if I can hear the difference that way.
Thats a great idea, I have introduced multiple variables at once and then had to wonder, which one really made the difference, how much of a difference, was it a cumulative effect, etc. I tend to agree overall with the less in the path, the better it sounds. So now your dsp is doing the duty of a dac also?
 
Thats a great idea, I have introduced multiple variables at once and then had to wonder, which one really made the difference, how much of a difference, was it a cumulative effect, etc. I tend to agree overall with the less in the path, the better it sounds. So now your dsp is doing the duty of a dac also?
Yes it has a DAC on board or maybe 4 of them would be more accurate, 4 stereo analog outputs.
Note, in my setup the MiniDSP's DACs were always being used,even with the analog inputs, the main difference was the bypass of my stand alone dac as well as the MiniDSP's on board ADC
 
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Now it goes from the USB to a USB TOSlink converter> optical to MiniDSP and processed analog RCA outputs to the power amps. This way there is only one DA conversion process instead of 3, and no preamp
So your computer is the volume knob?
 
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