So you want to understand Stylus Shapes? Try this!

[marcmorin]

I don't get it: How can the contact patch of an elliptical be greater than that of a spherical with the same bearing radius? Is this a byproduct of the polishing?

Good catch, i pointed that out in another thread. I also pointed out in row A they show a circular contact patch, but in D they show a vertical ellipse. cute trick without being a hyperbolic cut to keep .2 or .3, or .4mil in the vertical

 

[Nashou66]

I don't get it: How can the contact patch of an elliptical be greater than that of a spherical with the same bearing radius? Is this a byproduct of the polishing?

Its the vertical radius that is making the extra contact. Or another way of stating it its getting deeper in the groove while still keeping contact
further up the groove toward the top.While a conical does not. Also the width of a conical stylus will get a little info before and after the actual point in time
of what should be picked up by the coils.
Whilst the Elliptical and higher end micro lines will get less before and after info coloring the main information retrieval point in the groove.
This is why they sound more detailed, there is less fainter stray signals getting mixed with the signal meant to be retrieved at a specific point in time .

Here you can see what i mean by the fine point of contact at a specific point in time made by the micro ridge compared to the original cutter head and the Conicals.
The Micro ridge is closest to what the cutter stylus carved out of the master stamping plate.

But look at the elliptical, there contact area is less but the point in time is more precise.

Here look at the side view row. The micro ridge friction area is more precise in the groove location at a certain point in time and also taller , therefore
touching more of the grove in the top to bottom plane. Look at the L' values .

Make sense

Athanasios

 

[ripblade]

Make sense

Yes. The numbers in that chart make more sense.

 

[flavio81]

Super informative info here: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22894

Regards,
Jim

Hi, thanks for quoting my thread on stylus shapes.

As the years have passed, i've realized that, perhaps, the cantilever might have a greater deal of influence in the sound than the stylus shape.

However, at the inner grooves, and/or with a worn record, the stylus shape will have a marked influence. Not to mention something that I didn't mention on the thread: for some reason, the conical stylus tends to give lower surface noise, or at least it seems to me empirically.

 

[flavio81]

I don't get it: How can the contact patch of an elliptical be greater than that of a spherical with the same bearing radius? Is this a byproduct of the polishing?

I don't know how the calculus for the contact area were estimated (this was a Namiki estimation IIRC, present on a Namiki patent).

If the vinyl was totally rigid, contact point (on an elliptical or spherical) would be an infinitesimally small point. But vinyl is flexible -- I guess the calculations take flex into account and thus the difference in contact points.

 

[Yamahaha]

At the end of the day, a Denon 103 beats many more expensive carts ... so back to square one

 

[marcmorin]

Hi, thanks for quoting my thread on stylus shapes.

As the years have passed, i've realized that, perhaps, the cantilever might have a greater deal of influence in the sound than the stylus shape.
The cantilever is what carries the signal (modulation) to the magnet/coil/generating ring. the mechanical anomalies in that beam are also being relayed to the magnet/coil/generating ring

However, at the inner grooves, and/or with a worn record, the stylus shape will have a marked influence. Not to mention something that I didn't mention on the thread: for some reason, the conical stylus tends to give lower surface noise, or at least it seems to me empirically.
The vast amount of surface noise is vertical information. sum both channels, and surface noise goes down dramatically. loudness and duration of pops and ticks is micro mis tracking, to macro mis tracking (duration of time). the stone and it's shape has nothing to do with that, the cantilever and suspension do. if its not moving, no electricity is being generated. the louder and longer you hear album surface anomalies the longer the cantilever is swinging in free air, and or the mechanical anomalies of the cantilever.

 

[Hannez_R]

There have been several discussions about stylus shapes, contact area, VTF and record wear. It is believed (or really true) that basic elliptical will wear record faster than conical at given VTF and bigger major radius is also advantageous. I don't have any conical at the moment but i have an Ortofon OM 10 (0.3x0.7) and Ortofon Arkiv (0.5x1.0), both fairly new. So i tried to do little cue burn test with both. Did a scratching 40 times on both. Arkiv at 3g VTF induced very slight cue burn. OM 10 at 1.6g VTF didn't induce anything that noticeable.

 

[ripblade]

There have been several discussions about stylus shapes, contact area, VTF and record wear. It is believed (or really true) that basic elliptical will wear record faster than conical at given VTF and bigger major radius is also advantageous. I don't have any conical at the moment but i have an Ortofon OM 10 (0.3x0.7) and Ortofon Arkiv (0.5x1.0), both fairly new. So i tried to do little cue burn test with both. Did a scratching 40 times on both. Arkiv at 3g VTF induced very slight cue burn. OM 10 at 1.6g VTF didn't induce anything that noticeable.

Interesting experiment, but what this tells me is that, even with a large bearing radius, a high VTF is more destructive than a low one. This explains why cartridge makers began to produce needles with <1gm VTF requirements when it was thought that CD-4 was going to be the next big thing.

 

[tubewade]

There have been several discussions about stylus shapes, contact area, VTF and record wear. It is believed (or really true) that basic elliptical will wear record faster than conical at given VTF and bigger major radius is also advantageous. I don't have any conical at the moment but i have an Ortofon OM 10 (0.3x0.7) and Ortofon Arkiv (0.5x1.0), both fairly new. So i tried to do little cue burn test with both. Did a scratching 40 times on both. Arkiv at 3g VTF induced very slight cue burn. OM 10 at 1.6g VTF didn't induce anything that noticeable.

It would be even more interesting if you had a new STY-Pro-S and repeat the test.

 

[J. Rob]

Are true ellipticals essentially like line contacts with a .7 mil major radius? They look very similar to me

 

[lini]

J._R: Well, yes and no. No, because there are too many different line-contact type shapes, of which some are pretty different from the usual "true ellipticals", like for example the ridge types (MR, ML & SAS) - but, yes, if you'd say something like "I can spot practically no difference between some of my true ellipticals and some of my Ortofon FineLines as well as some of my Ogura Vitals...", I certainly wouldn't be surprised and rather second your impression.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Dmac43]

Question... Noob Question, I've spent the past 30 years listening to my vinyl using a Pickering XSP3003 with a Stereohedron Stylus.
That stylus has died and I put the old TT away and purchased a Fluance RT85 with an Ortofon Blue cartridge.
Will there / Should there be any difference in sound by switching styus types?

 

[Blue Shadow]

Will there / Should there be any difference in sound by switching styus types?

Absolutely. Stylus and cantilever make a sonic difference. Cartridge manufacturer makes a difference.

Are you noticing something or trying to make something better?

 

[Dmac43]

I’m getting a bit more pops/clicks than I’d expect which could be static, but the sound isn’t as full as I remember with the Pickering...
That said, the Ortofon only has about 10 hours on it so maybe it simply needs to break in to hear the music the way that I used to hear it.
Is there a cart/stylus that is close to what the Pickering was?
Would the Stereo Hedron be considered superior, or inferior to today’s styli?
It was all the rage when I bought it years ago.

 

[JonL]

I don't know how the calculus for the contact area were estimated (this was a Namiki estimation IIRC, present on a Namiki patent).

If the vinyl was totally rigid, contact point (on an elliptical or spherical) would be an infinitesimally small point. But vinyl is flexible -- I guess the calculations take flex into account and thus the difference in contact points.

Google "Hertzian contact stress" to see how this can be calculated. It's not simple, but it's a pretty common thing to do in mechanical engineering... it's how rolling element bearing life is estimated, also how gear tooth face loading is calculated.

 

[jfzea]

About elliptical, geometry says that is better, but is very important an accurate cartridge alignment. In the spherical case is important but not critical. What I have found is that a good spherical can be as good a certain elliptical, a matter of material, manufacturing tech maybe.

 

[cocovinyl176]

Hey Folks,
Just purchased a Linn Sondek LP12. Waiting for it to arrive by carrier. the owner inherited it from a relative, so the history is pretty vague, other than the original owner took good care of it. Attached is the ittok tonearm is a cart/Stylus that I can not make out. Does it look familiar to Anyone? To me it looks like an AT of some kind or Sumiko Oyster perhaps.

 

[Pio1980]

Hey Folks,
Just purchased a Linn Sondek LP12. Waiting for it to arrive by carrier. the owner inherited it from a relative, so the history is pretty vague, other than the original owner took good care of it. Attached is the ittok tonearm is a cart/Stylus that I can not make out. Does it look familiar to Anyone? To me it looks like an AT of some kind or Sumiko Oyster perhaps. View attachment 1662946

Grado, possible private label custom. Lots of factory stylus options, but beware the change out procedure can result in a destroyed stylus easier than you'd think.

 

[cocovinyl176]

Grado, possible private label custom. Lots of factory stylus options, but beware the change out procedure can result in a destroyed stylus easier than you'd think.

Grado makes sense. What do you mean, "beware of the change out procedure"