Solid State and Tube Listener Challenge

Seems to me that that discernment is a given factor in our interest of audio playback if you're even paying attention to this or any other thread anywhere on any site that caters to the likes of us. Honestly, we're all striving for the same thing. Unless of course you're just an interloper observing with a tub of popcorn and laughing at us. Seriously, realism is where it's at and there is, like it or not, a level or degree of objectivity in recognizing where it's to be found. Whether it's within ss, within tubes, or ss vs. tubes and vice versa. The real question is, how honest are we all being in regards to this debate? I suspect it's the real reason ss has gained the widespread acceptance necessary to provide funding for the ongoing r&d of electronics technology since the fifties. I've been an ss guy my whole life. I have an ST-70 waiting for me to install the upgrade kit I bought for it and also a tube complement. I'm also waiting for a pair of Electrohome 7189 monos I just purchased. I have zero listening experience with tubes but I have a feeling it's going to be an eye opener as well as an ear opener.
 
I'm glad I haven't reached that point.

So are we. Some people just want to listen to music, others want to experience it at a higher level. The great thing is we both can be happy at differing levels.

I do find systems at some friends' homes to be taxing on the ear. When asked if their Grand Prix all-in-one system sounds as good as my best system, I tend to smile and remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If pressed, I'll note that it floats their boat, so it must be good. If asked for my honest opinion yet again, I'll say it sounds like shit to me, but that that is only a reflection of my bad tastes. All while remembering there are countless systems above mine, where others can say the same about my beloved sytems.
 
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Gee, I just ran across this thread; sorry I missed the event. I'm in University City (and also in the basement). Nevertheless, what a great thread!!
 
This I believe counts as a test to see if people can tell the difference when vacuum tubes are inserted in an audio chain. This I did in 1990 while working at a radio station in Baltimore, Maryland.
WWMX-FM Vacuum Tube Experiment

(from the page linked above)
THE PROJECT:
The following is a summary of a project conducted in 1990 by this author while Chief Engineer at a radio station in Baltimore, Maryland. Although the radio station audio was in stereo and had a clean sound it lacked realism and depth, something that this author remembered from mono Hi-Fi systems of the 1950's. The studios and audio chain were all analog from music source to transmitter and after considering any differences in equipment configuration it was decided that the primary difference was the use of vacuum tubes back then.
Utilizing a few decades of vacuum tube experience, a project was started at home to build a vacuum tube gain controlled amplifier or more commonly called a compressor. The design was all 12AX7 triodes including a gain control stage; triodes were selected because of their second and third harmonic characteristics.
The reason for building a gain controlled amplifier rather than just a simple buffer amplifier was to gain loudness. One of the pitfalls of radio broadcasting is the fact that every station Manager and Program Director want to be the loudest station on the dial. This usually results in a lot of clipping and processing of the audio with the resulting harsh high end. Using a triode as a controlled stage requires controlling the grid bias and varying the stage gain. Using grid bias to control gain has about a 30db useful range sufficient to maintain an average level. As the triode goes farther into biased gain reduction it produces increased second and third harmonics, the second harmonic adds warmth to the audio while the third adds loudness.
The plan was to create the vacuum tube gain controlling amplifier, place it in front of the existing audio processing then reduce the processing and clipping in the existing processor. The existing processor would be limiting the audio signal only enough to prevent over-modulation without adding a harsh edge to the sound, the vacuum tube processor would then make up for the loudness.

THE RESULTS:
In order to get honest listening results to see if anyone would notice any difference, the new gain controlled amplifier had to be installed without anyone's knowledge. One night after midnight the all tube gain controlled amplifier was secretly installed in front of the existing Optimod 8100A processor. The Optimod was set so its internal input broadband compressor did very little processing instead letting the vacuum tube gain control do all the broadband processing. The high frequency clipping was also reduced.
The next day listening at home, the sound of realism that was missing could now be heard, it was a subtle difference with the addition of second harmonic content generated as the tube processor performed gain control. Listening also revealed that although the amplifier was controlling gain, louder passages still sound louder even though the actual level is being reduced, this is attributed to the extra harmonics adding loudness.
A few days went by and then compliments started coming in on how good the radio station sounded including calls from other radio station engineers. One day a music consultant once employed by the station walked in and said he was driving through town and wondered what we were doing that sounded so unique. Opening the back of the equipment rack his mouth dropped open when he saw all the glowing vacuum tubes.
Not only was this a success but a big success as the radio station ratings climbed up and beat out most other stations in listenership and higher ratings means more ad revenue for the station. There is no doubt that by just adding the use of vacuum tubes had improved the audio such that more people listened longer.

Very interesting stuff. :scratch2:
 
What kind of music was the station playing?


Sent from my galafreyan transdimensional communicator 100 years from now. G
 
Format was called Adult Contemporary (light rock).

OK! So things like Taylor Dane, Gloria Estafan, Elton John, Rod Stewart and Michael Bolton. (figuring the early 90's).

Very interesting. Still a lot of acoustic instruments in that music.
 
They also mixed in (then) older stuff from the 70's and 80's. In fact they called themselves "The Best Mix of the 70's, 80's and 90's".
Since it was my time and money that built the processor I took it with me when I left. The guy on the air one night thought I was mad at the station when I switched back to the original processing because it sounded "bad". I had it on the air at a couple other stations for awhile. It was on a Country format for awhile and the Program Director claimed he could hear some instruments better. But it was hay-wired in sitting on top of a rack so I took it out after three months. Program Director noticed the difference a couple days later and asked if I took it out. I eventually sold it on eBay. Thing is with audio coming off hard drive at radio stations now the quality just isn't there so what's the point.
 
Agree with you there. I worked at a radio/TV network for about 7 years and it's all about faster cheaper less money. Audio quality is pretty much forgotten.


Sent from my galafreyan transdimensional communicator 100 years from now. G
 
MannyE; Great Avatar; Dalek Sek.

So What about Micro Systems?

My Panasonic SA-PM27 Bi-Amp, holds its own against anything its come across.
It'll punch out through almost any speaker you can shove in the back end.

It has seperate amps for highs and lows. 110W total output power
 

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MannyE; Great Avatar; Dalek Sek.

So What about Micro Systems?

My Panasonic SA-PM27 Bi-Amp, holds its own against anything its come across.
It'll punch out through almost any speaker you can shove in the back end.

It has seperate amps for highs and lows. 110W total output power

Value for money you probably can't spend 50 pounds in a better way, well, not at a retail store anyway, but a flea amp connected to the right speaker will blow that, or rather, EXTERMINATE! that Panasonic.
 
Well, now that the thread has strayed completely off the track, let's jump back on track. Saturday, May 3 finds us meeting at the Record Exchange for Gateway Audio Society"s annual record crawl. After a sojourn to U City to visit Vintage Vinyl and grab a bite for lunch, Liam and I will go home to warm up the stereos.

Those that don't go with us early will hit Euclid Records, and then come down so everyone can listen to their new purchases. Check out Gateway Audio Society if you are interested in attending.:thmbsp:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124564.0
 
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MannyE; Great Avatar; Dalek Sek.

So What about Micro Systems?

My Panasonic SA-PM27 Bi-Amp, holds its own against anything its come across.
It'll punch out through almost any speaker you can shove in the back end.

It has seperate amps for highs and lows. 110W total output power

Although, I do have to admit a pair of self amped Tannoy near field monitors hooked up to practically any decent line-level source do pretty well too.
 
Hey guys, I have redirected nicely once. Please feel free to start a new thread to carry on your conversation, and don't thread jack here. Thanks
 
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