Some Empire Turntable History

[ictwoody]

I posted a thread in the Turntable forum about my project... but since this is the official thread. ;-)

Here’s a link to my thread if you want more detail. You guys might like the videos before and after the O-Ring mod to the platter.

Woody’s Resto-Modded Empire Troubadour

- Woody

 

[kmp14]

I posted a thread in the Turntable forum about my project... but since this is the official thread. ;-)

Here’s a link to my thread if you want more detail. You guys might like the videos before and after the O-Ring mod to the platter.

Woody’s Resto-Modded Empire Troubadour

- Woody

View attachment 1095184 View attachment 1095185

I asked this on Woddy's thread, but figured I should ask here as well:

Seeing Woody's beautiful table has me confused....I am in the middle of a 398 project myself. I have a Jelco SA-750D. My 750 will not raise high enough to clear the platter without an arm board raising it. Does anyone know if the ST-250ST raises up higher than the 750? Is there something other trick I am missing here?

 

[ictwoody]

I asked this on Woddy's thread, but figured I should ask here as well:

Seeing Woody's beautiful table has me confused....I am in the middle of a 398 project myself. I have a Jelco SA-750D. My 750 will not raise high enough to clear the platter without an arm board raising it. Does anyone know if the ST-250ST raises up higher than the 750? Is there something other trick I am missing here?

Hmmm... I just had a 750 in my possession and I didn't think the shaft was any shorter... but I honestly never compared. There are technical drawings for both arms available on Vinyl Engine I think... maybe compare them?

The mounting plate for the Jelcos adds at least 15mm or so above the surface on which it's mounted... are you sure your 750 won't clear? The head shell is going to add some offset for the cart. The main reason I went with the 250 is cause it has a shorter Pivot-to-spindle distance than the 750 arms. It's the same as the stock arm so I don't have to elongate the hole to use it, just make it larger.

I am not anywhere near the top of the range of height on my arm... I actually had to lower it down quiet a bit to get the arm/cart level with the record surface.

- Woody

 

[ictwoody]

I asked this on Woddy's thread, but figured I should ask here as well:

Seeing Woody's beautiful table has me confused....I am in the middle of a 398 project myself. I have a Jelco SA-750D. My 750 will not raise high enough to clear the platter without an arm board raising it. Does anyone know if the ST-250ST raises up higher than the 750? Is there something other trick I am missing here?

Looking at the two schematics, I can't see why your 750 wouldn't work. They both use the same mounting base, and if anything the 750 shaft is longer. Here are both schema.

Edit: Here are a couple photos of mine. The arm is up high... but not near what I consider the end of the adjustment range. Originally I put it in the collar and lightly set it, and then when the cart was mounted I had to lower it down at least 5mm or more. I don't remember exactly.

- Woody

 

[kmp14]

Here are a couple photos of mine. The arm is up high... but not near what I consider the end of the adjustment range. Originally I put it in the collar and lightly set it, and then when the cart was mounted I had to lower it down at least 5mm or more. I don't remember exactly.

Dang Woody, thanks for doing that research! I will have to take another look at it, see what I am doing wrong. I thought I had read elsewhere or earlier in this thread that the 750 was pretty close to a drop-in replacement, so I already made the hole bigger, but centered on the old hole, to accept the 750 mount. I didn't check the spindle-to-pivot previous to that, going on the info that the 750 was very close to a drop in.

Whatever it was that made me think that it wouldn't go high enough, I fabricated an arm board (wood), and when I measured out the spindle-to-pivot distance, it was not centered on that original hole, but significantly further out.

I know others have used the 750D on the 298 series, so if not using an armboard, I wonder what they did to get the alignment right? Time for some searching! Thanks again.

 

[ictwoody]

Dang Woody, thanks for doing that research! I will have to take another look at it, see what I am doing wrong. I thought I had read elsewhere or earlier in this thread that the 750 was pretty close to a drop-in replacement, so I already made the hole bigger, but centered on the old hole, to accept the 750 mount. I didn't check the spindle-to-pivot previous to that, going on the info that the 750 was very close to a drop in.

Whatever it was that made me think that it wouldn't go high enough, I fabricated an arm board (wood), and when I measured out the spindle-to-pivot distance, it was not centered on that original hole, but significantly further out.

I know others have used the 750D on the 298 series, so if not using an armboard, I wonder what they did to get the alignment right? Time for some searching! Thanks again.

The SA-250ST has a mounting distance of 210mm. The SA-750D has a mounting distance of 214mm. Not a huge difference... but enough to warrant an offsetting when opening up the hole in the empire top plate. The Linn arms all seem to use a mounting distance of ~211mm also... the Akito, Ittok etc... the Vinylengine arm database is a huge help for things like this. They list the Empire 980 and 990 arms as a 211.3mm mounting distance. I figure 1mm + or - is fine... there's probably that much slop in the mounting.

EMPIRE TONEARMS ON VINYLENGINE

If the SA-750 had been the right length, I would have probably sprang for the extra cost just for the fluid-damping. I have a Sumiko MMT on my Denon DP-1250 and it's a great arm... basically the 750's predecessor, the SA-370 which has fluid damping.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted out.

- Woody

 

[ictwoody]

I’m cross posting with my thread... but I think this is important enough.

Well the new “True-Speed” belt from Esoteric solved the speed issue with aplomb! I was running at almost 35RPM with the first belt, and now I’m sitting pretty at 33.39RPM... we’ll within spec of the table.

And it sounds wonderful. I’m very happy with the result. And I’m actually really enjoying it with my 2M Blue on it. I’m running it into my Resto-Modded Marantz 1060 and Tekton Pendragons.

It’s expensive for a piece of rubber. But spend the money and get the belt from Esoteric for your Empires. It’s worth it. Here’s the link again.

TRUE SPEEDBELT for Rek-O-Kut K-33H, K-34H, N-33H, N-34H, NL-33H, R-34H, Rondine, Trovatore, Knight KN-1015

- Woody

 

[kmp14]

I just thought I would post a link to my new thread showing off my newly revived Empire 398G with the amazing group that watches and contributes to this thread:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/first-run-of-my-refurbished-empire-398g.809706/

 

[MisterDK]

Hey folks!

I recently got an Empire bug so went and bought a couple to play with - picked up a decent looking, early 208 (late 1960 castings) with a 98 arm, and then a few day later, got a dirty but not crusty 598. I now have a couple questions..

What other headshells fit the 98 arm? Am I stuck with using the stock type Empire? If the original Empire type is the only one that works, where besides ebay can they be found?

Who is the best source for belts that fit properly, for both models? Both came with what appear to be original belts, but the 598’s is stiff and kinky lookin’..

I see two different ebay sources of aftermarket cartridge mounting plates/sleds for my 990 tonearm (on the 598). Which of the aftermarket sleds is the better one?

I’ve already ordered new Lord’s grommets for both turntables. Looking into another cartridge sled or two for the 598, and a new headshell for the 208 table.

Thanks for your guidance! ^_^

 

[MRL_Audio]

Big long thread here with tons of great info. Esoteric has the right belt. Either of the eBay sleds will work. The shiny one is preferable to me. The non shiny one is made with a 3D printer.

 

[empirelvr]

..What other headshells fit the 98 arm? Am I stuck with using the stock type Empire? If the original Empire type is the only one that works, where besides ebay can they be found?

1. None
2. Yes
3. Ebay is probably your best (if not only) bet for replacement headshells for the 98. But be prepared to dig deep in your pockets for one.

 

[empirelvr]

...Either of the eBay sleds will work. The shiny one is preferable to me. The non shiny one is made with a 3D printer.

Not quite. Only one has the correct thread for the arm mounting nut. The other uses a standard 4-40 nut that is not the right size.

To the OP: Read the descriptions of the ebay sleds carefully. One will talk about how they use the correct thread nut. That's the one to get.

 

[MisterDK]

Thanks, guys. I ordered two of those mounting sleds today - the ones with the brass thread insert. The other brand, looks to me like the glued-in nut was put into the wrong side. Seems that if that nut came loose, the sled and cartridge might fall out of the headshell.
Anyway, something about that one made me order Pat’s. I don’t care if Pat is a Cher fan. ^_^

Still haven’t ordered belts yet, but the new Lord’s grommets showed up today.

Not sure what I’ll do for my 98’s headshell yet. The 98 arm looks pretty decent. Has anyone here tried replacing the female socket that’s in the arm wand (or the whole wand), with something that works with common headshells?

 

[MRL_Audio]

Not quite. Only one has the correct thread for the arm mounting nut. The other uses a standard 4-40 nut that is not the right size.

To the OP: Read the descriptions of the ebay sleds carefully. One will talk about how they use the correct thread nut. That's the one to get.

I have both and they both work. At least the versions I bought. May be a differing seller now. I agree though. Be a smart buyer.

 

[basplin]

Question for the Empire experts on here: the 908 tonearm on my Empire 398 is having some issues. It's having trouble tracking inner cuts on an LP - it's common for it to skip and the sound coming out of the left channel is often distorted. Everything else tracks perfectly, it's just when it gets to the inner grooves. According to my stylus pressure gauge, the weight applied by the arm drops considerably when it gets in the inner grooves. Wondering if the internal spring needs replacing? Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[empirelvr]

Question for the Empire experts on here: the 908 tonearm on my Empire 398 is having some issues. It's having trouble tracking inner cuts on an LP - it's common for it to skip and the sound coming out of the left channel is often distorted. Everything else tracks perfectly, it's just when it gets to the inner grooves. According to my stylus pressure gauge, the weight applied by the arm drops considerably when it gets in the inner grooves. Wondering if the internal spring needs replacing? Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Do you have the dynalift on your arm? If so, sounds like it's not adjusted right. Try this: Disable the dynalift (knock the cylinder back) and see if it tracks the inner grooves better. If it does, the arm needs to be adjusted a bit.

Do you have the instructions for the 398 turntable or 980 arm? if not, register here (it's free) and download them to see how to adjust the dynalift. www.vinylengine.com

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Question for the Empire experts on here: the 908 tonearm on my Empire 398 is having some issues. It's having trouble tracking inner cuts on an LP - it's common for it to skip and the sound coming out of the left channel is often distorted. Everything else tracks perfectly, it's just when it gets to the inner grooves. According to my stylus pressure gauge, the weight applied by the arm drops considerably when it gets in the inner grooves. Wondering if the internal spring needs replacing? Any advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Post a picture or video. In addition to disabiling the Dyna-Lift, what cart are you runnning? What is the age of the stylus? What is the tracking force? Is the tonearm height set so the arm is level when the cart is on the record?

Also - Empire didn't make a 908 tonearm. It's either a 98 or 980 tonearm. If it's actually a 98 then you have flying leads exiting the tonearm underneath that could be binding. The 980 has plug in assembly wire that is different.

If you have a 980 tonearm, you have to make sure the cartridge "sled" has the cart in the optimal position to avoid mistracking. In contrast, the 98 arm has a fixed cart position that eliminates having to fine tune the cart position.

I'm thinking you may have a cart sled adjustment issue and a 980 arm.

 

[basplin]

Thanks guys. It is a 980 arm, that was a typo.
I thought I had set everything up right with the protractor, but I'll go over it again. I downloaded the manuals for the Dynalift, but it still isn't super clear how to adjust it, and it's possible that I've been doing it wrong. I've just been adjusting it via moving the tonearm height, which seems pretty archaic. Does the Dynalift move on it's own? In any case, the mis-tracking on the inner grooves happens whether the dynalift is activated or not.
I'm running it with a Stanton 681EEE and the stylus is nearing the end of it's life, but still sounds good. I'm guessing I'm somewhere around 400 hours on it. Tracking force is 1.33gr. As best as I can tell, the tonearm is level with the record...

I would love this to be an adjustment issue rather than an issue with the tonearm itself, so I'll mess around with it and report back!

 

[empirelvr]

Are you using the bush? If so, the VTF should be 2.33 grams, which might explain why you are getting issues. Is it a genuine OEM stylus or an aftermarket one? Many of those need to be tracked heavier.

You can adjust the dynalift not just by height, but also by moving the whole pivot housing side to side. (This is to make sure the dynalift doesn't get activated too soon.)

As to the internal spring, you can't replace it. It's also a flat, tempered steel spring so it shouldn't "go bad" like a coiled spring can.

It's odd. I can't really see why you would get two different VTF readings aside from the magnet in the dynalift influencing things.

 

[basplin]

Are you using the bush? If so, the VTF should be 2.33 grams, which might explain why you are getting issues. Is it a genuine OEM stylus or an aftermarket one? Many of those need to be tracked heavier.

You can adjust the dynalift not just by height, but also by moving the whole pivot housing side to side. (This is to make sure the dynalift doesn't get activated too soon.)

As to the internal spring, you can't replace it. It's also a flat, tempered steel spring so it shouldn't "go bad" like a coiled spring can.

It's odd. I can't really see why you would get two different VTF readings aside from the magnet in the dynalift influencing things.

No brush - using a NOS Stanton EEE stylus.

Yeah, it's a little strange. It's doesn't happen with every single record. I'm wondering if it might be some sort of interference in vertical axis inside the arm. I know it's all ball bearings, so I'm hesitant to even attempt disassembling the arm. Is using oil/lubricant on the empire arms a no-no?