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Sound and vision: The rise and fall of vinyl

Discussion in 'The Magazine Forum' started by fdrennen, Feb 18, 2016.

  1. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    An interesting discussion, perhaps, but the conclusion drawn is quite wrong. This book was written in 1999, and we should have known better then, and definately know better now. The author does, at least, interpret the medical study correctly, about the human sensitivity to interaural time differences, which is more than most of the writings I've seen on this topic. But, the author fails to understand the nature of digital audio, and pulls the same knee-jerk conclusion of virtually all other writers addressing this topic. In a nutshell, 16/44.1 digital audio can (and does) have inter channel delay capabilities way below 1us. Delay capability has little to do with sample rate, as the author correctly stated defines bandwidth.
     

     

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  2. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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  3. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    What you say about the time of samples is true, but linking to the same erroneous article multiple times will not make the conclusions drawn in the article any more true. Sample rate determines bandwidth only, it has very little to do with the timing accuracy needed for delays between channels. I fully understand that it may appear so at first glance by the pedestrian, but in reality the word width is what gives the ability to place timing events with sub-micro second accuracies. Way beyond what is detectable by humans.
     
  4. Snoober

    Snoober Dysthymic Subscriber

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    To think, I've sunk almost $10,000 over the last few years into my vinyl front end for nothing more than a "romantically sensual" experience, according to the Sound & Vision article. Um, no: I invested the money because vinyl done right exceeds the playback quality of other media in my system. Anyone who tries to posit that people who invest in vinyl do so for reasons of nostalgia only are obviously not referring to my subset of "people".
     
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  5. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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    +1:thumbsup:
    I have no irrational connection with vintage gear as many posters here do. I'm only concerned with getting the best sound I can from whatever gear I'm using.
     
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  6. CSCHOEN

    CSCHOEN Active Member

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    I really need both cds and vinyl. Some records I have are not on cd, and if they are, the vinyl has been mastered better. On the other hand, I have more than a few cds
    (Mofi, AF, DCC gold discs) that are so much better than the record I have, that the cd is what I will play. But I would trade my cds before I would my records.
     
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  7. for_p1

    for_p1 Addicted Member

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    High-end gear dealers will love see more people like you. Their life depends on milking them dry. Others though will continue enjoy remaining $9000 in their pocket and listening digital files from which 90% of new vinyl releases are cut.
     
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  8. CSCHOEN

    CSCHOEN Active Member

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    You can spend a lot of money on expensive hardware, but if you play music badly sourced (poor mastering, digital rather than seeking an original analog sourced mastering, etc...)
    music mediums, then you are just fooling yourself. My system is modest, but I put extra effort towards getting the best copies of the albums I love. New, digitally sourced vinyl "can"
    be very good, but again, it's how well it was mastered for the vinyl pressing.
     
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  9. Nat

    Nat AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I've always been baffled by Ken Pohlman's enthusiasm for everything technologically new (and no, I don't follow him obsessively and can't document this opinion), and now I'm baffled by this article. I will say that I don't listen to non hardware based music -- I just can't be bothered to learn how to download music that either costs me money but provides me with no physical posession or that might have viruses in it. I am old fashioned and like things I can hold. Same with books, of course.
     
  10. sKiZo

    sKiZo Hates received: 8642 Subscriber

    I think sometimes folk write this stuff just to create controversy.

    Me ... I love my vinyls ... :rolleyes:
     
  11. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazi...olution_Audio_Perceptual_Evaluation/page4.htm
     
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  12. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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    The time delay discussed here:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=eZtPwVBAfPoC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=48khz+microseconds&source=bl&ots=eWajkXyrS6&sig=ovC71gU8DWdfY_BPFe3Q4RuOSWY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO8ozp0ZjMAhXMHh4KHdRlDfUQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=48khz microseconds&f=false

    is mainly between left and right ears and between samples. Channels (ie. right and left) are discussed next to the figure, but what about mono or a single sound source? A single sound source can be used to observe the time delay between the right and left ears. Try listening to an audio oscillator driving a single speaker and turn your head from side to side. When I did it, it appeared that the sound source moved when using 1 kHz (an illlusion). This showed I could detect the phase differences (ie. delay) in both ears. If you played music through one speaker, someone with relatively normal hearing can detect the position of the speaker with some degree of accuracy mainly because of phase differences or time delay between each ear. Loudness in each ear is another clue to position. What effect does sample rate have on reverb? What effect does reverb have on imaging?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  13. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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    What effect does relative time delays between multiple sounds (such as in music) have on the perception of the sounds? What if the time delays are between the harmonics from one musical instrument? Can you hear the difference with one speaker and one ear? How does quantizing error affect the relationship between the harmonics from one instrument or with vocals?

    I suspect that the reason that CDs sound to me relatively flat dimensionally or lacking in dimension, as I describe it, compared to a lot of analog sources, such as LP records, is because maybe the sample rate and/or number of bits (16 bit 44.1 kHz with a CD) isn't high enough and the author of that book gives a good possible explanation. I think stereo image is just one thing that's affected. The ambience or reverb effect seems to be affected by the CD technology. A lot of people complain about CD sound. That's why we have SACDs and DVD-As.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  14. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    No difference for mono. It is the same case, sampling rate defines the bandwidth that can be captured. If the composite signal of all sounds you are trying to digitize is within the bandwidth limitation defined by the sampling rate, it will be digitized with no problem.

    This is all true, but what's the point? Of course you can do this. You could also do this with two speakers (better if headphones), and a single 1kHz source. Gradually shifting the phase relationship between the two drivers will make the source appear to move. This is called a virtual image.

    Reverb usually has decreasing bandwidth per increasing time. So, if the bandwidth is sufficient for the direct signal, the reverberated signal should not be an issue.

    It provides a sense of spaciousness.
     
  15. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    Gives it a sense of space?

    Really, I think you're overthinking this and ending up in the weeds. All wavefronts that hit a microphone from whatever sources at whatever distances will add together to give a composite signal. This signal is then digitized regardless of what instrument or what distance from source to mic, or source to source, is involved.

    Quantizing a signal does not change its frequency. So the harmonics, which are harmonically related to the fundamental will not change their frequency and will remain harmonically related. Be it either instruments or vocals.
     
  16. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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    Why are there SACDs and DVD-As if 16 bit 44.1 kHz is enough? I can hear the difference.
     

     

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  17. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    Whatever differences you hear are not related to accuracy of time delay as hinted in your first post in this thread about the rise and fall of vinyl.
     
  18. Scifi

    Scifi Super Member

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  19. House de Kris

    House de Kris Loud-n-Deep

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    What you say about the relationship of sampling rate and time between samples is absolutely correct. But, that correct factoid has nothing to do with the claim made in the article you cited many posts ago. The article stated the results of a medical study where it was determined that humans can hear and identify the difference in arrival of two signals with a time difference of 15, 10, or even 5 microseconds. The author then made the erroneous leap that since redbook audio has more than 20 microseconds between samples, that CDs are incapable of digitizing and storing such small time differences that humans can easily detect. The article cited clearly demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge by the author.

    44.1/16 digital has time placement accuracy in the nanosecond range, theoretically. As with mechanical (analog) storage, the practicle implementation is limited by noise in the system.
     
  20. horacepinker

    horacepinker New Member

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    Vinyl has not hit the mountain top yet. I was just in the Bay Area and hit all my old local music stores that were still open: Rasputin's, Amoeba, Recycled, and a couple of new ones. It was standing room only for vinyl. Stopped in Fairfield and Sacramento and it was the same thing--vinyl stores packed with kid and adults. Vinyl will keep going well. No one puts the social factor into much--people love to stand around and look through music. It's in our genes now. Nothing cooler then looking over and seeing a cute chick hold an album you love, then asking if she's heard it before.

    Now, Fremer comes off as a sad, entitled 14 year old girl when anyone questions vinyl's sound quality. I'll read him review a piece of gear, then in the Comment section misunderstand someone's objective question, and e'll write "why are you so pissed off"? It's absurd and would be like him thinking I'm pissed off writing this post. His lack of humility and self deprecation explain a lot. Then he seems to be tracking every article that references vinyl and turntables, especially when compared to a DAC or Disk machine. Neither of the latter can compete with vinyl per Fremer in any argument. I'd love to see someone challenge him with a Phillips CD850 MKII Multi-bit Cd player from 1991. He could pick any turntable/pre/cart/needle combo for under $1000. Mobile Fidelity's Pink Floyd DSOTM would be a pretty even choice to use for music. Then all other gear involved would be agreed upon and used by both components for a double blind sound test with a novice audiophile, expert audiophile along with Vincent Gallo and Steve Albini.
     
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