Sound of vintage vs modern speakers (is it "agitated" vs "natural"?)

[E-Stat]

The A7 Illusion is a spectacular design, so much that I cannot distinguish the difference between the speakers and my acoustic piano, however they require a room bigger than 10’ x 10’ to reach their maximum potential.

Eeks. Indeed a smallish square room with myriad room modes is not the ideal space for them.

I set my Sound Lab stats almost that distance (~8') away from the front wall in a 26x15 space for linear bass and realistic sense of acoustical space.

 

[SA7I]

Eeks. Indeed a smallish square room with myriad room modes is not the ideal space for them.

I set my Sound Lab stats almost that distance (~8') away from the front wall in a 26x15 space for linear bass and realistic sense of acoustical space.

Sorry, I was referring to Twiiii’s post . My room is bigger than 10’ x 10’.

 

[E-Stat]

Sorry, I was referring to Twiiii’s post . My room is bigger than 10’ x 10’.

His reference was distance to speaker. I find nothing in his post about a 10 foot square room.

 

[SA7I]

His reference was distance to speaker. I find nothing in his post about a 10 foot square room.

In any case, to get the most out of a pair of Snell A7 Illusion’s, you’ll need to place them in a big room.

 

[jazzmans]

... The A7 Illusion is a spectacular design, so much that I cannot distinguish the difference between the speakers and my acoustic piano, however they require a room bigger than 10’ x 10’ to reach their maximum potential.

That is very, VERY high praise indeed!
seriously? I've only ever heard one speaker truly reproduce everything from a piano, and that was an array of wisdom speakers at CES 2002 in the clark county theater.

http://v1.stereotimes.com/2002_ces_weaverday4.shtml
It sounded terrible when I first went in, but once I put on my recording of liszts hungarian rhapsody #2... all fo a sudden there was a piano sitting there on stage, it was spooky good.

I can't imagine hearing a speaker that reproduces the same piano in the same room indistiguishable...
wow.

 

[E-Stat]

In any case, to get the most out of a pair of Snell A7 Illusion’s, you’ll need to place them in a big room.

Absolutely. Whether you listen - "at 10 ft. I don't know how they would hold up at 16 ft."

I find speaker placement and listening at room thirds optimum to minimize room modes - which for my speakers is slightly over eight feet. Driver blending is a non issue with full range stats.

I can't imagine hearing a speaker that reproduces the same piano in the same room indistiguishable.

Nor can I. Close, yes. Indistinguishable, no.

Even with the finest source and electronics. HP's systems got close.

 

[triode17]

If a speaker has metal dome tweeters, especially Aluminum and/or Titanium, it will usually sound harsh to me.

I agree with you except for JBL Pro speakers (monitors). They're the only ones who seem to be able to use titanium correctly.

 

[xero-D-hero]

I'll start off my comments here by saying that I absolutely love my LX-44,matter fo fact I enjoy them enough to own two pairs of them.
Also own 2 pair of LX-22 (2 way) and a pair of LXE-330 (also 2 way).

So yeah I'm a fan of the JBL LX series speakers as SOP,for what they cost ask me they're a pretty dang good speaker.
To find something similar new today would take something like the Bryston Mini T and those typically cost between $3000.00 - $4000.00.
Now no doubt the Mini T would win against the JBL LX-44 SQ wise,but they should for what they cost vs. what the LX-44 cost me.
But the LX-44 are still a very good sounding speaker to me,and they were well within my budget,and the Bryston Mini T are'nt,so it's simple as that.

Also I heard something like "...Yamaha and JBL LX44....well, no surprise it sounds sharp...

Now w/my comments above being said,this ^^^^ is an accurate slice of audio wisdom.
So ask me this guy is much closer to the truth vs. the other salesman that said all vintage speakers sound "agitated".
This has to do with what most call "synergy" as the Yamaha receiver is known for having a "clean / clinical" sound signature.
And paired with those LX-44's 026Ti tweeters such a rig may indeed be a bit "hot" for many listeners ears,often leading to listening fatigue.
As one member mentioned some folks just cant listen to Ti tweeters & enjoy them,same as some folks dont enjoy horns,yadda,yadda,yadda.

Me I'm fine with the Ti tweeters,I also have some AR TSW-410 that are 3 ways w/a Ti tweeter and I love those too.
But I'm also an EQ user so I can easily take the edge off the high end if it's sounds a bt "hot" to my ears.
Which is another thing that not everyone is willing to do,but I digress on that point for now.

Now pair the LX-44 with something known to be on the "warm" side of things (lets say Sansui as an example) and the LX-44 will typically sound more balanced.

A fairer "old vs. new" comparison for the LX-44 would something like my Sony SS-B3000 speakers,and the JBL LX-44 absolutely kill those no sweat.
I bought those Sony new just as some temporary speakers as they were'nt too expensive,but the differences are like night & day construction wise.
Cabinets on the JBL are FAR more robust,significantly thicker MDF,and the LX-44 are braced fairly well,even if they are covered in vinyl.
Cabinets on the Sonys are pretty much a joke comparitively speaking,thinner,no bracing,no insulation,not much else either.
And the Sony dont even have a true crossover,just some "bass blocker" caps on the mids/tweeters and the woofer runs full range.

So it's all about one's perspective really,there's simply no way to make any apples-2-oranges comparison a fair one.

In that part of the world I would probably be looking for some vintage Canton speakers as those are known to pair well with vintage Yamaha gear.
Unless I had ample money burning a whole in my pocket,then I'd probably be looking to pick up some Harbeth / ATC / PMC speakers.

My point,,,I dunno really LOL,,,just throwing out some food for thought I guess ???

FWIW

Bret P.

 

[automojo]

[QUOTE="jazzmansI can't imagine hearing a speaker that reproduces the same piano in the same room indistiguishable...
wow.[/QUOTE]
ESS AMT3.....

 

[jazzmans]

I can't imagine hearing a speaker that reproduces the same piano in the same room indistiguishable...
wow.

ESS AMT3.....

I've heard many amt speakers, and while the great heil is one glorious driver, none of them were seamless, where they crossed over, especially with regards to piano.

 

[0Hz]

I have never really thought of it in the terms laid out in the OP..

I am not an audiophile or even and "enthusiast". I mean, I own 4 sets of speakers now but I really only play one of them due to room constraints.
I like my Pioneer S-500X speakers. I don't think they are anything special? But they sound alright. From playing around with my Pioneer CS-M551's I absolutely love their soundstage, although that could change depending on where I put them next. I tried them out very much near-field. but they seemed pretty well overall and while they can hit a bit lower than my S-500X's I would still probably run a sub with them. Then there are the Acutex cabinets I have in the attic that someone put radioshack drivers into... they actually sound "OK" but lol....

I also own Bose Companion II Series III desktop speakers. They actually sound surprisingly good especially on some of the low end. I don't even know what they're made of but I assume its plastic. Still have some heft to them though. They don't quite do it for really low end obviously but the sound they push for their size is amazing all things considered. I've owned Logitech PC gaming surround sets in the past but always found them to lack something.

I feel like speakers are speakers. You get good ones and you get bad ones. The important part is finding good ones.

There is a channel on youtube called Z Reviews, he's reviewed a lot of stuff, even without subs some of the speakers he's demo'd have put out some really low end stuff and I could tell because it was coming from my sub. There are great speakers out there if you know where to look.

I don't think focusing on the material or time period or anything is going to get you anything unless you are after a very specific sound that has more to do with speaker design than material.

 

[automojo]

I've heard many amt speakers, and while the great heil is one glorious driver, none of them were seamless, where they crossed over, especially with regards to piano.

I beg to differ-I'm betting you haven't heard a AMT3, it's a 3-way-NOT a monitor. Huge difference. They sound totally different. Or more specifically one upgraded to modern standards, supporting drivers/crossovers. The AMT3 is unique in it's three way design, that blends the large woofer with the Great Heil, using a transition driver. A quick search @ AK, and other forums and you will find those that echo the same.
Get over to these parts, and you can take a listen to my humble living room system, with upgraded, finely tuned AMT3's. You'd be blown away. Like my sister. She's taught piano for 40 years, concerts, bands, (blues/jazz) and again, echo's the same......it's uncanny ability to match the piano's speed, decay AND tone seamlessly. Like it's playing in the same room....not too many speakers can pull that off...
I did my share of piano as well.....more of a 'sound guy' back in the day you could say....
Speaking of speakers, even the best won't sound good if not matched up properly with it's supporting cast, and more specifically listening room.
Being able to tune your speakers not only in a electric 'sense', but in a physical 'sense', to your listening environment, as I have found-makes all the difference.
Even the best designers in the world can't recreate your personal listening environment, which more or less, is a extension of your speaker itself

 

[jazzmans]

Yes, I've heard the amt 3. It's a very good speaker.

It(AMT 3) still doesn't sound like a piano to the point where there's a chance in hell I couldn't tell which was which.

I obviously haven't heard your modified AMT's in your room, and I'm not trying to knock them. I think the great Heil is one of the finest, if not the finest transducer made, rivaling, or maybe even exceeding a true ribbon like Magnepan makes, or Infinity's EMIT, which I am still enamoured with after all these years. I wish Infinity had used the great Heil to be honest, think what they might have done.

The room is as important as the speakers, if not more so. It took me many years to finally realize this. I've modified my main listening area with both absorbers and diffusers, bookshelves, quilts, rugs, beanbags, etc etc, along with acoustic popcorn (I don't know why people remove that stuff, it makes the ceiling horribly reflective) on the ceiling. There are no large flat surfaces or unbroken parallel walls in my main room, and that's by design, including the rear (behind the speakers) wall.

My main speakers are all dipoles. Infinity RS IIb and Magnepan 2.5R. I'm incredibly happy with the sound, but could tell in an instant a recording from the actual piano in my main listening room.

sidenote. I once had the luck to do a gig with a Steinway Hamburg 'D' I was running flyrail. On one of the show days, I had the luck to be onstage, before the gig, with no-one else present.

Y'know what I did?

I struck and held Eb until all the vibrations had faded away. For me, just listening nearfield to the one note, and the harmonics resonate, and decay in that art deco theater was as pleasurable to me as it was listening to Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 in full that was performed during the show, and up on the flyrail, it was sublime!

 

[ev13wt]

Hi all! I would like to know your opinion/experience/comments/whatever on the following issue concerning the sound of vintage vs modern speakers...

When I was talking to a guy in the high-end Hi-Fi shop, he told me that the vintage speakers from the 70's have an "...agitaded, nervous sound, they are exagerating the sound (especially high-frequencies) and don't sound natural --- whereas modern speakers sound softer and more natural...".

I have JBL LX44 speakers, titanium tweeters...and, well...they do sound somehow too sharp sometimes....

Looking away from the fact that he might have been trying to talk me into buying a new pair of speakers (which may happen eventually, just don't know which ones yet), what do you think of this statement, is it really the case in your opinion?

Just curious

He cannot sell you old speakers, the end.

In reality, the modern speakers are all tuned towards way more highs than anything out of the 70s. That "mellow old sound" - that is accented mids - not sreechy highs.
And then, there are good tweeters and crappy tweeters - in all periods.

 

[automojo]

Yes, I've heard the amt 3. It's a very good speaker.

It(AMT 3) still doesn't sound like a piano to the point where there's a chance in hell I couldn't tell which was which.

I obviously haven't heard your modified AMT's in your room, and I'm not trying to knock them. I think the great Heil is one of the finest, if not the finest transducer made, rivaling, or maybe even exceeding a true ribbon like Magnepan makes, or Infinity's EMIT, which I am still enamoured with after all these years. I wish Infinity had used the great Heil to be honest, think what they might have done.

The room is as important as the speakers, if not more so. It took me many years to finally realize this. I've modified my main listening area with both absorbers and diffusers, bookshelves, quilts, rugs, beanbags, etc etc, along with acoustic popcorn (I don't know why people remove that stuff, it makes the ceiling horribly reflective) on the ceiling. There are no large flat surfaces or unbroken parallel walls in my main room, and that's by design, including the rear (behind the speakers) wall.

My main speakers are all dipoles. Infinity RS IIb and Magnepan 2.5R. I'm incredibly happy with the sound, but could tell in an instant a recording from the actual piano in my main listening room.

sidenote. I once had the luck to do a gig with a Steinway Hamburg 'D' I was running flyrail. On one of the show days, I had the luck to be onstage, before the gig, with no-one else present.

Y'know what I did?

I struck and held Eb until all the vibrations had faded away. For me, just listening nearfield to the one note, and the harmonics resonate, and decay in that art deco theater was as pleasurable to me as it was listening to Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 in full that was performed during the show, and up on the flyrail, it was sublime!

Awesome!
Yes!1 the rooms, acoustics, like a huge extension, a instrument into it's own, so to speak.
I agree about Infinity, Heil vs Emit....
Thanks for the cool insight!

 

[TenTea]

AlNiCo? Didn't he run for Governor or something somewhere lol?

No, no, no, ...she played with Lou Reed.