Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[chef free]

Wow! 27 pages and I've never noticed this thread? I gotta get out more!
Seriously though this is an interesting little experiment. Yes, there were more than a few variables left uncontrolled, but it's a good start.
I have a problem with all this faith in very short term "A/B double blind" testing. From my experience, I need weeks to decide if I prefer a change in my audio set-up. What sounds "better" in a quick A/B test (for example brighter sound) can get really grating over time. I need time to listen at different volumes, to different music in different moods, before I can really be sure about preference.
(Of course different speaker wire can sound different but for me the question is one of preference, does it sound BETTER?)

 

[dumptruck]

(Of course different speaker wire can sound different but for me the question is one of preference, does it sound BETTER?)

Then you are already outside the realm of any test results, so you really don't need to worry about these tests misleading people about what's better. Your point is a good one, it just doesn't apply until a test actually has a result (see my post on page 26, for example).

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

Wow! 27 pages and I've never noticed this thread? I gotta get out more!
Seriously though this is an interesting little experiment. Yes, there were more than a few variables left uncontrolled, but it's a good start.
I have a problem with all this faith in very short term "A/B double blind" testing. From my experience, I need weeks to decide if I prefer a change in my audio set-up. What sounds "better" in a quick A/B test (for example brighter sound) can get really grating over time. I need time to listen at different volumes, to different music in different moods, before I can really be sure about preference.
(Of course different speaker wire can sound different but for me the question is one of preference, does it sound BETTER?)

I think you will find a decent amount of folks on this thread that pretty well see it (hear it) like you do, and although ABX with debatable perimeters would be helpful for many, some just can't get there. I like, and resonate with the idea of "first blush" never being a reliable long term decider and that would play in on the relative value of ABX. I think being involved in a well set up ABX may just get a few staunch NON-believers to reevaluate, that's all.

Happy Listener, Happy Listening!

 

[bluesky]

It's so easy...

Find a pair of speaker cables that work really well with your specific system.

Doesn't have to be cheap, doesn't have to be expensive.

It just has to 'sound right' and be ok with your ears, mind, feelings, and soul.

All it rally takes is: "I really like these speakers cables!" And your done. You found em and you got em.

Done Deal.

It's that easy.

 

[robgmn]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around doing everything possible to make sure the amp/components don't color the sound in any way (from tone control bypass to replacing as many internal components as possible with better ones, to buying a power cable that delivers better electricity than what comes out of the outlet, to USB cables that deliver more accurate binary, to multi-thousand dollar DACs), and then purchasing speaker wire/patch cords, etc. that alter the signal in some way.

Is it that the low-level signal is harder to modify to get the sound that is desired without introducing artifacts (akin to using a scope on a rifle-one small change means a big change in what is seen in the far-field), so you want to add it at the (almost) end of the chain?

I would think the effort to transparency would extend to the entire system (?).

 

[JohnVF]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around doing everything possible to make sure the amp/components don't color the sound in any way (from tone control bypass to replacing as many internal components as possible with better ones, to buying a power cable that delivers better electricity than what comes out of the outlet, to USB cables that deliver more accurate binary, to multi-thousand dollar DACs), and then purchasing speaker wire/patch cords, etc. that alter the signal in some way.

Is it that the low-level signal is harder to modify to get the sound that is desired without introducing artifacts (akin to using a scope on a rifle-one small change means a big change in what is seen in the far-field), so you want to add it at the (almost) end of the chain?

I would think the effort to transparency would extend to the entire system (?).

Its not to alter the signal from flat. Its realizing that everything alters the signal, so you might as well choose something that alters it in a way that you like. Also, tackling slight "tone control" issues with cables seems to harm the overall sound less than doing it elsewhere. To me at least. Everybody does it differently, but we're all after what makes us happy.

 

[Catcher10]

I guess I will find out soon enough......Currently I use a 16AWG Moster Cable speaker wire with banana plugs on ea end.
I just ordered a set of Belden 5000 series grey 10AWG with banana terminals both ends from Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle. I like their ultrasonic welding technique for terminating......I will pick them up tomorrow, since I am here local.

Will post my thoughts after a few days of breakin listening. I will say these are very inexpensive cables, I am not of the mindset to spend $400-$500 for cables..or more :nono:

 

[Brett a]

I just took another foray into trying different speaker cables and can report that, once again, I've found that price has little-to-nothing to do with it--at least up to $400 price-point. More expensive/better spec'd cables don't always sound the best. I think the key is to set a budget and don't be afraid to try things at half that price or less.

I also know it's the opinion of some that speaker cables don't really get jaw-dropping 'til you're north of $1,200. This, I will never likely know.

 

[terra1]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around doing everything possible to make sure the amp/components don't color the sound in any way (from tone control bypass to replacing as many internal components as possible with better ones, to buying a power cable that delivers better electricity than what comes out of the outlet, to USB cables that deliver more accurate binary, to multi-thousand dollar DACs), and then purchasing speaker wire/patch cords, etc. that alter the signal in some way.

Is it that the low-level signal is harder to modify to get the sound that is desired without introducing artifacts (akin to using a scope on a rifle-one small change means a big change in what is seen in the far-field), so you want to add it at the (almost) end of the chain?

I would think the effort to transparency would extend to the entire system (?).

Everybody has different reasons for purchasing wire and cable.

Transparency wasn't my goal. Mine was to get a better smoother sound and more detail but that was 20 years ago. That may or not be the same as transparency for some people.

Even speaker manufacturers will recommend larger gauge depending on the length of speaker placement.

On a bigger scale: Consider telephony. The signal from one caller on a mainline telephone to another mainline telephone goes through many routers, repeaters and central offices before reaching the intended party. The signals have to be cleaned up, and reamplified along the way.

One of the reasons I supported the Audioholics article as "a little bit of something for both sides:" was it offered measurements from a guy who was skeptical of the marketing used in some exotic cable and wire. He recommended the Blue Jeans as a good value. Yet he still had no problem highly recommending more expensive Kimber speaker cable. He based reviews on both listening and measuring. Explaining the science behind it: inductance, capacitance, etc. and what may or may not make a difference. From his point of view.

 

[gvalent]

I also know it's the opinion of some that speaker cables don't really get jaw-dropping 'til you're north of $1,200.

I don't think this test shows that though.
The $3 zip cord was being compared to three "jaw-droppers", one of which cost $8,000.
The results show 32% preferred the zip cord over the jaw-droppers and 22% had no preference.
Makes me wonder how a set of "real audio cables" like a $30 pair from Monoprice would stack up against the jaw-droppers.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

I guess I will find out soon enough......Currently I use a 16AWG Moster Cable speaker wire with banana plugs on ea end.
I just ordered a set of Belden 5000 series grey 10AWG with banana terminals both ends from Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle. I like their ultrasonic welding technique for terminating......I will pick them up tomorrow, since I am here local.

Will post my thoughts after a few days of breakin listening. I will say these are very inexpensive cables, I am not of the mindset to spend $400-$500 for cables..or more :nono:

Not knowing your room or your kit... I think you're in for a pleasant surprise.
Let us know...

Happy Listener!

 

[Mister Pig]

I have spent the last couple of weeks interviewing some perspective interconnects for my system. Some are out of reach, others just plain expensive, and others more reasonable. None are cheap.

The top end is $3K, and the bottom end $300 for a meter pair. While I won't go into minute detail, I will say that the $1050 Cardas Golden Cross were the measuring bar of this process, and that cable sounds wonderful with a wide range of systems and music.

But I think I found my favourite cable, and it is not near the price of the top shelf one, or even the Golden Cross.

This evening I have had the chance to listen to the VH Audio Spectrum CU interconnects with WBT Nextgen RCA plugs. Selling price is $500 a meter. Can be had for about $150 cheaper with the Gold Eichmann Bullet RCA's.

This is a lovely cable! As good as I have heard in a long time. Very balanced, tonally with a nice midrange presence. Excellent dynamic contrasts, and a quick and lively presentation. Doesn't quite have the outrageous top end extension that the Golden Cross has, but its not too far off. On the positive side it has a higher degree of focus, and appears to be more balanced in the midrange and lower treble.

This cable has been cooked, but only has a few hours on it. If the top end opens up a bit more, then I got no complaints whatsoever.

Even so I think I may have found my new cable, its quite stunning!

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Brett a]

I don't think this test shows that though.
The $3 zip cord was being compared to three "jaw-droppers", one of which cost $8,000.
The results show 32% preferred the zip cord over the jaw-droppers and 22% had no preference.
Makes me wonder how a set of "real audio cables" like a $30 pair from Monoprice would stack up against the jaw-droppers.

Yes. That is an interesting finding of this test and does leave me wondering. I know I could borrow a pair of $1k speaker cables from my local shop, but I really don't want to have to "unhear" them after. (Should they provide a valuable improvement).

 

[Catcher10]

Not knowing your room or your kit... I think you're in for a pleasant surprise.
Let us know...

Happy Listener!

Been listening for about 6 hrs now since picking up my new cables....Right now all I can say is WOW!

I will gather my thoughts and post tomorrow after more listening tonight.

 

[Snow]

To all the people that cant hear a difference in speaker cables, both your time and money would be best spent elsewhere it's as simple as that :yes: Certainly it would be a waste of your money and time looking for and buying a better amp tuner TT or any other audio item because you couldndt hear the difference anyway.

If you are truly that hearing impaired why you are even on an audio forum is a mystery to me. If you have serious hearing loss than perhaps it's best just to purchase a set of big pro speakers with horns and the biggest ass whopper of an amp you can afford and destroy what ever hearing you have left at 120-150 db.


REGARDS SNOW

 

[JohnVF]

To all the people that cant hear a difference in speaker cables, both your time and money would be best spent elsewhere it's as simple as that :yes: Certainly it would be a waste of your money and time looking for and buying a better amp tuner TT or any other audio item because you couldndt hear the difference anyway.

If you are truly that hearing impaired why you are even on an audio forum is a mystery to me. If you have serious hearing loss than perhaps it's best just to purchase a set of big pro speakers with horns and the biggest ass whopper of an amp you can afford and destroy what ever hearing you have left at 120-150 db.


REGARDS SNOW

That's exactly the kind of attitude that brings the hate down on our subjective end. To be honest, I've never heard huge differences in speaker cables, either. Very subtle differences, yes. But nothing game changing or night and day for me. But those subtle differences were enough to investigate further, and eventually realize that my money is better spent elsewhere in the chain. That doesn't mean I don't think people should go all out on them if they do hear huge differences. But my defense of them isn't from thinking, personally, that that changes are all that huge in the context of every place else that you can put your money. I see them as a last addition, a final small tweak. I know some disagree and think they're really important...and that's great. But I'm certainly not going to suggest that they find another hobby because I think they're too focused on the minutia over the big picture (saying that just for comparison with the above).

 

[Brett a]

(...)If you are truly that hearing impaired why you are even on an audio forum is a mystery to me. If you have serious hearing loss than perhaps it's best just to purchase a set of big pro speakers with horns and the biggest ass whopper of an amp you can afford and destroy what ever hearing you have left at 120-150 db.


REGARDS SNOW

Yeh, that's a totally sh!tty attitude that only harms relations. I'd infer from your statement that better speaker cables are like upgrading from an 8 track player to a R2R. And it just isn't like that. So let's not give people the impression that it is.

Often, it is a very subtle difference that is heard and it is that subtle difference that we (as cable tweakers) are assessing the financial worth of before we buy.

Although my last go-round surprised me at how different various cables can perform, but I think that's a rarer exception after 20+ years of only hearing subtle differences.

 

[Catcher10]

Belden 5000 Series Speaker Cable

As I said above......I ordered a pair of Belden 5000 Series 10AWG Grey spkr cable from Blue Jeans Cable in Seattle couple days ago. I went and picked them up rather than shipping since I am in the Emerald City.

Blue Jeans does a great job and had them ready within 1 day. They have this unique "welding" technique for the terminations on banana plugs.....Its pretty cool, if anything it gives you a solid, durable connector that is said to improve low electrical resistance with this surface to surface connection.....I like it.

After I connected the new cable I began with my Zune player and digital media. About an hour into listening I really could hear a difference, on Diana Krall Live in Paris, her vocals became much more outfront and her piano was bigger. As I turned the volume up it only got better!
I put in a Porcupine Tree CD-The Incident and immediately I noticed the soundstage got wider and bigger, what I also noticed was the level of detail increased and instruments became more pristine, especially I could hear better detail in all the ambient noises that populate Porcupine Tree music...very 3D like effects.
What the cables also seem to be doing is giving me more bass, low end response to my digital and CDs, I like that, makes the sound full and robust and I think its what the Epic 2s were waiting for. These speakers have a great low end but now seems it just got a bit better.....The mids and highs are detailed, clear and clean.
Then I spun vinyl, I don't have the best TT, but the Nagaoka cartridge helps A LOT!! These cables gave me analog bliss....I must say I have not heard my vinyl sound this good before. Moody Blues-Days of Future Passed had a renewed 60's sound and again I was hearing little tidbits I had not heard before. I played vinyl till about 1am (my wife and kids are out of town) so I got a lot of breakin time, will continue today and see what else these cables give me.
So for me I am getting....
Better/More Low End
Wider Soundstage
Better Instrument Details
Lifelike Vocals

I am not of the camp to spend $500-$800 for cables..let alone $1500...these cables were inexpensive but a tweek that to me is paying well over its cost, which to me is what a tweek should do. Blue Jeans Cable also does a nice job with making the cables and also at any length since they are custom. The gold locking banana ends are super nice too.......Highly recommended without handing over your bank account.
Here are a couple pics.

Cheers!

Connections to the NAD amp

Connections to the Epos

 

[Snow]

That's exactly the kind of attitude that brings the hate down on our subjective end. To be honest, I've never heard huge differences in speaker cables, either. Very subtle differences, yes. But nothing game changing or night and day for me. But those subtle differences were enough to investigate further, and eventually realize that my money is better spent elsewhere in the chain. That doesn't mean I don't think people should go all out on them if they do hear huge differences. But my defense of them isn't from thinking, personally, that that changes are all that huge in the context of every place else that you can put your money. I see them as a last addition, a final small tweak. I know some disagree and think they're really important...and that's great. But I'm certainly not going to suggest that they find another hobby because I think they're too focused on the minutia over the big picture (saying that just for comparison with the above).

Bullshit. I never said that you or anyone else could or should hear huge differences in speaker cables, I said a difference. I stand by my claim that if your hearing is so impaired that you cant here a difference at all then most likely your not going to be able to hear a difference between amps preamps tuners CD players or any other audio item other than perhaps loudness. If this is the case then your money is likely better spent in a different hobby.

Yeh, that's a totally sh!tty attitude that only harms relations. I'd infer from your statement that better speaker cables are like upgrading from an 8 track player to a R2R. And it just isn't like that. So let's not give people the impression that it is.

Often, it is a very subtle difference that is heard and it is that subtle difference that we (as cable tweakers) are assessing the financial worth of before we buy.

Although my last go-round surprised me at how different various cables can perform, but I think that's a rarer exception after 20+ years of only hearing subtle differences.

Bullshit again. It's not a shitty attitude it's a honest realistic attitude. Harms relations? I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I could care less whether you or anyone else can hear a difference big or small. Either you do or you don't hear a difference and no amount of me trying to convince convince someone is going to help and the ones that don't have an open mind never will.

For most people that can actually hear a difference the gain is small compared to other things in the chain but as you go up in the food chain with your other components the odds are greater that you will hear a difference in speaker cables simply because the gear is is capable of revealing those differences.

I'm sure you have read where people say they prefer a certain set of speakers because all there albums sound good and others state that once they get a new piece of gear that good albums sound really good and bad albums sound really bad.

Odds are that the noticable difference may be very slight if detectable at all with some gear but if you have a very revealing quality system then add a nice set of cables the difference can be huge unlike your statement.

(I'd infer from your statement that better speaker cables are like upgrading from an 8 track player to a R2R. And it just isn't like that.)

It indeed can be just like that given the right gear and the right set of cables :yes: There may only be a 5% difference in sound on a cheap non revealing system but the percentage may jump to night and day with the right gear.



REGARDS SNOW

 

[JohnVF]

Bullshit. I never said that you or anyone else could or should hear huge differences in speaker cables, I said a difference. I stand by my claim that if your hearing is so impaired that you cant here a difference at all then most likely your not going to be able to hear a difference between amps preamps tuners CD players or any other audio item other than perhaps loudness. If this is the case then your money is likely better spent in a different hobby.

Bullshit again. It's not a shitty attitude it's a honest realistic attitude. Harms relations? I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I could care less whether you or anyone else can hear a difference big or small. Either you do or you don't hear a difference and no amount of me trying to convince convince someone is going to help and the ones that don't have an open mind never will.

For most people that can actually hear a difference the gain is small compared to other things in the chain but as you go up in the food chain with your other components the odds are greater that you will hear a difference in speaker cables simply because the gear is is capable of revealing those differences.

I'm sure you have read where people say they prefer a certain set of speakers because all there albums sound good and others state that once they get a new piece of gear that good albums sound really good and bad albums sound really bad.

Odds are that the noticable difference may be very slight if detectable at all with some gear but if you have a very revealing quality system then add a nice set of cables the difference can be huge unlike your statement.

(I'd infer from your statement that better speaker cables are like upgrading from an 8 track player to a R2R. And it just isn't like that.)

It indeed can be just like that given the right gear and the right set of cables :yes: There may only be a 5% difference in sound on a cheap non revealing system but the percentage may jump to night and day with the right gear.



REGARDS SNOW

If I ever leave the hobby it won't be because I can't hear a night and day difference in some stupid cable. It will be because of the over-blown hot air attitude expressed by you and others like you, who seem to forget that we're talking about a hobby. A stereo. Something to bring joy and not some way to make ourselves feel better than somebody else.