Speakers "fatigue" ? Need help !

As is the OP I too wonder where we can get this black sticky rubber stuff. My Allison speakers have it on the woofer and originally on the old foam surround. I was surprised how tough it was when re-foaming my Allison's

Purchase some butylene rubber sheeting and dissolve it in toluene. Observe all the usual precautions when using toluene, or any other low-molecular weight solvent. (Stoddard solvent and xylene are similar weight if you're looking for handling instructions.)

This is essentially chewing gum, so it is very pliable and flexible and remains so for decades. That's why it is great for surrounds, unlike PVA, gasket cement, driveway sealant, epoxy, silicone, etc. Mortite is butylene rubber plus some filler, typically calcium carbonate (aka limestone). It, too, remains gooey for decades.
 
Purchase some butylene rubber sheeting and dissolve it in toluene. Observe all the usual precautions when using toluene, or any other low-molecular weight solvent. (Stoddard solvent and xylene are similar weight if you're looking for handling instructions.)

This is essentially chewing gum, so it is very pliable and flexible and remains so for decades. That's why it is great for surrounds, unlike PVA, gasket cement, driveway sealant, epoxy, silicone, etc. Mortite is butylene rubber plus some filler, typically calcium carbonate (aka limestone). It, too, remains gooey for decades.
Thank you!
 
Yes. If cloth surrounds, diluted butyl is most definitely the way to go.

Often paper, as well. I have Japanese speakers from the late 1950s and early 1960s which had paper surrounds which were coated by butylene rubber.
 
Good morning,

I am looking for a special substance to "refresh" the paper surround of vintage speakers in order to improve the performance of these. I read a number of threads on "fatigue speakers", but it seems that there are different views and I can't find in there the answer for me. Let me make it clearer.

Few years ago when I was in Asia, a local audiophile gave me a small glass tube containing a substance which is transparent, sticky like paper glue and non-dried. I have applied this on the textile fabric surrounds of vintage speakers like Whaferdale W70, Bozak, coaxial drivers and also on paper surrounds of other drivers of my collection. But not on the foam or rubber surrounds. Pricing is 20 USD for this small glass tube, and it is enough for one pair of 12" woofers, two light coats in front and two others coat from behind the surround. Just applied on the surround, absolutely not on the cone

Why it is needed? I realized that the surround of vintage gears became more stiff after so many years, the original black coat on the surround became dried and less sticky, and the bass coming from the fatigue drivers became very dry. And I realized also that on many vintage speaker surround, there is always a coat of black, lightly sticky and non dried substance (Tannoy, Altec).

The result is far from satisfying. I am very happy with. The improvement is like day and night. And there is still a non dried coat there on treated speakers after years. It is still sticky.

The senior audiophile never unveils what it is the substance.

My question is do you know what it can be and where in USA I can procure this kind of anti-fatigue substance for vintage speakers, the paper surround to be more concrete? (I saw that there is a possibility to "repaint" the cone with a black substance, for sale on some website. Your speakers will become totally black. But it is absolutely not my favorite approach).

Or may I reformulate the question: what is the coat that companies like Altec, Tannoy have applied on their paper surround ?

Many thanks for your help.
Hugh811

Simply speakers sells surround sealant, sounds similar to what you're talking about. I had it applied when I had the surrounds replaced on my JBL SB-1's drivers.
 
Simply speakers sells surround sealant, sounds similar to what you're talking about. I had it applied when I had the surrounds replaced on my JBL SB-1's drivers.

That is PVA, aka white glue. It will destroy any speaker surround to which it is applied.

I looked up this product since I was dubious about it being a butylene rubber sealant. Took me literally ten seconds to find this:
https://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesive-mi-1291.html
Speaker Repair Adhesive & PVA Sealer, White # MI-1291

Yup, white glue. As expected.

This is not a suitable sealant for any speaker surround. It is only used, in very small quantities, to adhere the surround to the cone. (I prefer the solvent-based adhesives because those can be removed, unlike PVA which soaks into the cone. I don't do this for a living, so my solvent exposure is small.)

It is highly doubtful that any large company will sell a speaker sealant that uses a solvent like toluene. Just too much trouble. Not only can it not be shipped by mail, carriers will charge a hazardous fee for it, it must be labelled as known by the State of California to cause cancer, and lawsuits can arise from use, let alone misuse. Large manufacturers which sell solvent-based adhesives and sealants can amortize the cost; smaller producers cannot.

I know of no large company selling a butylene rubber solution for speaker surrounds. Such a product is a boutique item sold by small vendors which fly under the radar

It would be best to check on the exact content of any purported "sealant" before ruining speakers.

I again point out that extensive research exists on AK and Classic Speaker Pages about the effects of butylene rubber sealants, as well as the adhesives and caulking commonly recommended by people who are repeating erroneous dogma, and I suggest everyone research this before buying products whose deleterious effects are already known and which have been measured and scientifically tested.
 
I should point out there is a giant difference between adhering a new urethane (or similar) surround to the frame and cone vs. sealing a cloth or paper surround by coating it.

In the first case (replacement with urethane) the surround is not coated with the sealant whereas in the latter case (cloth and paper) the surround is coated with the sealant to prevent the movement of air through the surround.
 
That is PVA, aka white glue. It will destroy any speaker surround to which it is applied.

I looked up this product since I was dubious about it being a butylene rubber sealant. Took me literally ten seconds to find this:
https://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesive-mi-1291.html
Speaker Repair Adhesive & PVA Sealer, White # MI-1291

Yup, white glue. As expected.

This is not a suitable sealant for any speaker surround. It is only used, in very small quantities, to adhere the surround to the cone. (I prefer the solvent-based adhesives because those can be removed, unlike PVA which soaks into the cone. I don't do this for a living, so my solvent exposure is small.)

It is highly doubtful that any large company will sell a speaker sealant that uses a solvent like toluene. Just too much trouble. Not only can it not be shipped by mail, carriers will charge a hazardous fee for it, it must be labelled as known by the State of California to cause cancer, and lawsuits can arise from use, let alone misuse. Large manufacturers which sell solvent-based adhesives and sealants can amortize the cost; smaller producers cannot.

I know of no large company selling a butylene rubber solution for speaker surrounds. Such a product is a boutique item sold by small vendors which fly under the radar

It would be best to check on the exact content of any purported "sealant" before ruining speakers.

I again point out that extensive research exists on AK and Classic Speaker Pages about the effects of butylene rubber sealants, as well as the adhesives and caulking commonly recommended by people who are repeating erroneous dogma, and I suggest everyone research this before buying products whose deleterious effects are already known and which have been measured and scientifically tested.
The white glue came in metal toothpaste style tubes, the sealant came in a plastic squeeze bottle, I wish I were home I could show you..

Here it is on their site https://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-cone-edge-sealer-mi-1291fg.html
 
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I think I found the product you reference.

Here's what the company states:
https://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesive-mi-3035.html
You cannot buy this locally. This is a proprietary adhesive for speaker repair. Please purchase through our website.

I see no mention of ingredients or a safety datasheet which would provide the information as to ingredients.

My conclusion (inferred from statements on the product page and confirmed with what I found on AK) is given that (a) acetone can be used to clean it up and (b) the description of strings when gluing (see below), that it is an copolymer adhesive using acrylic (aka superglue or cyanoacrylate), with some added vinyl or styrene groups, maybe some rubbery groups to make it flexible, or some combination of the the above. Such an adhesive dries stiff, and is not suitable for use as a surround sealant. As I keep saying, there is a difference between adhering the surround to the frame and cone, and sealing a flexible surround which must remain flexible.

The product description then goes on to say:
Q: i need to reseal the cloth surrounds on ar3a woofer, do you have the correct product? Asked by: matt - 5/31/2016
A: Yes, please use our PVA edge sealer part # MI-3035FG.
This makes me distrust anything written about those products, as PVA is unsuitable for such purpose. But, most important, if this were a butylene-rubber based (and it clearly is not) product then it would be suitable for use as a surround sealant, instead of a suggestion to use PVA, which, again, is totally unsuitable. Again, the company does not suggest this for use as a sealant. That alone ought to make anyone think twice.

BTW: that tube glue was not favorably reviewed on AK:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/best-refoam-glue.760743/
Refoamed a pair of tweeters from a Pioneer CS-77A last night and holly hell the glue that simply speakers sent was a NIGHTMARE to deal with.
Seemed to dry in 5 seconds and leave stringers everywhere, zero room for error. The glue came in a tube and was clear. First tweeter is cosmetically a sloppy mess, second one is much better, but was still a pain in the arse with that glue.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/best-refoam-glue.760743/#post-10359286
A nighmare for me too refoaming Advent 5002. Maybe was I a noobie at refoaming that time but, this glue was all over me. Plastic ciment like... yeurk.​

I suggest reading through this entire thread:
Note that some of the sealants hardened over time, raising Fs. Never a good thing.
 
I think I found the product you reference.

Here's what the company states:
https://www.simplyspeakers.com/speaker-repair-adhesive-mi-3035.html
You cannot buy this locally. This is a proprietary adhesive for speaker repair. Please purchase through our website.

I see no mention of ingredients or a safety datasheet which would provide the information as to ingredients.

My conclusion (inferred from statements on the product page and confirmed with what I found on AK) is given that (a) acetone can be used to clean it up and (b) the description of strings when gluing (see below), that it is an copolymer adhesive using acrylic (aka superglue or cyanoacrylate), with some added vinyl or styrene groups, maybe some rubbery groups to make it flexible, or some combination of the the above. Such an adhesive dries stiff, and is not suitable for use as a surround sealant. As I keep saying, there is a difference between adhering the surround to the frame and cone, and sealing a flexible surround which must remain flexible.

The product description then goes on to say:
Q: i need to reseal the cloth surrounds on ar3a woofer, do you have the correct product? Asked by: matt - 5/31/2016
A: Yes, please use our PVA edge sealer part # MI-3035FG.
This makes me distrust anything written about those products, as PVA is unsuitable for such purpose. But, most important, if this were a butylene-rubber based (and it clearly is not) product then it would be suitable for use as a surround sealant, instead of a suggestion to use PVA, which, again, is totally unsuitable. Again, the company does not suggest this for use as a sealant. That alone ought to make anyone think twice.

BTW: that tube glue was not favorably reviewed on AK:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/best-refoam-glue.760743/
Refoamed a pair of tweeters from a Pioneer CS-77A last night and holly hell the glue that simply speakers sent was a NIGHTMARE to deal with.
Seemed to dry in 5 seconds and leave stringers everywhere, zero room for error. The glue came in a tube and was clear. First tweeter is cosmetically a sloppy mess, second one is much better, but was still a pain in the arse with that glue.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/best-refoam-glue.760743/#post-10359286
A nighmare for me too refoaming Advent 5002. Maybe was I a noobie at refoaming that time but, this glue was all over me. Plastic ciment like... yeurk.​

I suggest reading through this entire thread:
Note that some of the sealants hardened over time, raising Fs. Never a good thing.

Hmm well on the surround sealant page I linked they mention 'vinyl emulsion ' a few times and cleans up with water. I didn't refoam the drivers my self, I planned to but wussed out and sent them to Springfield speaker who did it for me. They used their own adhesive. But I did send the sealer I linked and they applied it, did a great job too!
 
Hmm well on the surround sealant page I linked they mention 'vinyl emulsion ' a few times and cleans up with water. I didn't refoam the drivers my self, I planned to but wussed out and sent them to Springfield speaker who did it for me. They used their own adhesive. But I did send the sealer I linked and they applied it, did a great job too!

Whatever the ingredients may be, this product is clearly not suitable as a surround sealant for cloth or paper surrounds. This use, again, differs from an adhesive used to glue the surround in place.

At this point I have explained the issues in great detail with quotes from the manufacturer and RoyC's extensive research. Much other research exists and can be trivially found. Anyone seeking a surround sealant should research the issue. The conclusion is expected to be either: (a) purchase or (b) make, a butylene rubber in toluene solution as originally used by AR, KLH, and numerous other speaker manufacturers. No reason exists to use products with unknown ingredients and unknown effects, particularly when this can destroy a classic speaker.
 
I have a can of Altec sealer for accordion type surrounds which I bought
in 1988 , part number : 54007

This product contains TOLUENE and HEXANE , and is likely butyl rubber
dissolved in these solvents.

This might be available from great plains .. https://greatplainsaudio.com

To re-vitalize your surround, you might brush on toluene to soften up the sealer.
It might take 20-30 min. for an application.

For an un-treated surround, you might try Aileen's Flexible Stretchable
fabric glue, *NOT* the tacky glue. I am considering using this on old
radio speakers with the paper hinge. experiments with this glue look
promising ,It dries clear, not tacky, low odor and is flexible.

https://www.amazon.com/Aleenes-15592-Flexible-Stretchable-4oz/dp/B003W0HBLQ

Let us know how things turn out.......GC
 
I have a can of Altec sealer for accordion type surrounds which I bought in 1988 , part number : 54007
This product contains TOLUENE and HEXANE, and is likely butyl rubber dissolved in these solvents.

I searched, but do not not see any ingredients listed for that. Given the timeframe and that it was Altec, one might suspect it was butylene rubber and solvent.

A telephone call to Altec could confirm the ingredients.

For an un-treated surround, you might try Aileen's Flexible Stretchable fabric glue, *NOT* the tacky glue. I am considering using this on old radio speakers with the paper hinge. experiments with this glue look promising ,It dries clear, not tacky, low odor and is flexible.

Absolutely not. That product is a modified PVA. It will stiffen the surround and ruin it. This is not recommended for sealing a surround.

Aleene's products are PVA-based. They are basically a thick white glue, which is why it dries clear and has no odor, and is nothing special or magical.

PVA can be modified to be more or less rigid, and more or less flexible. But it is still too stiff. A speaker surround must be highly compliant. Stiffening of the surround is used to reduce resonance, particularly in metal-cone drivers, but the characteristics are specified by the speaker designer. Changing them by stiffening the surround will raise Fs and reduce the low-end response. It can also introduce resonance issues, as the surround is not compliant and instead reflects.

The fact that people use the wrong product doesn't mean this is the correct procedure. The proper sealant is a sticky, gooey rubber which takes decades to crosslink and dry.

Experimenting with PVA will destroy the driver and only end up confirming what is already known: PVA is unsuitable to seal surrounds.
 
PVA will ruin the speaker. I cannot stress this enough.

RoyC did actual experiments and testing:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/4044-cloth-surrounds/
Along the way I experimented with a number of the white surround "treatments". This group included the stuff sold by Simply Speakers, Orange County, M-Sound, and Global Adhesives (who labels it "white surround dampener"). These are all water soluble/PVA based, and as advertised, dry more flexibly than regular white glue. They are also advertised as being able to be used for a "wet look" on woofer cones. The problem with all of them is that they gradually stiffen. One 3a woofer I experimented on went from an fs of 16hz upon treatment to 32hz after one month! I experienced similar results with all brands on a variety of surrounds.
I think that is all that needs to be said about the purported benefits to joining White Glue Cult. Fs doubles.

The initial results from Permatex (a tacky gasket cement) were then deprecated after a few months revealed hardening:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/4044-cloth-surrounds/&page=2
I recently re-tested (out of cabinet) a few woofers treated with Permatex last year, and it appears that fs has risen on the average of 3 to 4 hz. The Permatex has lost its tacky nature, and seems to have stiffened a bit. While still better than anything else I have used in the past, the rise in fs is a little disconcerting.
...
Agreed...time probably takes its toll on any of the materials used as sealants, but this seemed a bit premature....So, after noticing the surrounds were more flexible after being at room temperature for awhile, I decided to run more measurements at different temperatures . Sure enough, the fs averaged 3.5 hz less at 80 degrees F than at 60F. The increase in fs since first applying the Permatex is not as great as I thought (maybe 1 to 2 hz).
From this we may conclude that the only safe material to seal a surround is butylene rubber dissolved in a low-molecular weight solvent like toluene. This is what AR, KLH, and other manufacturers used.
 
Thank you all for the advice. Special thanks go to Retrovert and 604man. I am going with butylene rubber and toluene. I have a few spare speakers for a test. I will be back to report the result soon.
 
But if you know where we can order ready-to-use product, it is also great. I asked greatplainaudio, hopefully they will answer.
 
But if you know where we can order ready-to-use product, it is also great. I asked greatplainaudio, hopefully they will answer.

I doubt any large company sells a product with toluene, for the reasons I outlined. Solvents are now deprecated for products because of the potential risk for the manufacturer. You're going to have to rely upon small vendors and that poses risks because they are cooking up something which may not be what is claimed. Make absolutely certain you know what is in the solution.

May of these so-called experts push products which are thinned gasket cement, thinned caulking (not the same even when it contains butylene rubber!), silicone, PVA, etc. and are vague about their "secret recipe" claiming it is "proprietary". Some will blatantly lie about the ingredients.
 
Good news. GPA replied that they had it. They called it the edge dampener. It is always clear and just looks black when it is on the black surround. Order has been made. Back to you soon.
 
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Good news. Greatplainsaudio replied that they had it. They call it "the edge dampener" and said that they used it for Altec drivers for years. It is always clear and just looks black when it is on the black surround. Order has been made. Back to you soon.

Did you ask what was in it?

Something clear could be PVA, silicone, etc.
 
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