Stepped in Poop Again

T

Toasted Almond

RIP 1952-2016
Got an e-mail from a good buddy at Onkyo. List of stuff that was going on "employee sale". He told me to pick out three things, cause he wasn't sure of the pecking order(even though he is UP THERE), and some of this stuff was one-of-a-kind. I got me third choice..... a brand new, in the box, owners manual and all accessories, TX-SR700 Dolby Digital 6.1 Receiver. $50 delivered to the squadron. $800 list and mine was a review model, gone over with a fine toothed comb by maniacs. 100wpc x 6 @ 8 ohms, and 125 x 6 @ 6 ohms. I'm only using it in stereo mode right now, but will fix her up soon w/appropriate surrounds. No center. I don't believe in them. It's already in ops in Stephanie's bedroom, driving 1979 vintage "New Advent" speakers. My parents should've done this for ME when I was 13.

My recently retired navigator flying buddy Robert "Algonquin" Poole, he got his first choice. A $3,500 list Onk receiver, for $200/delivered to the squadron.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
Where is that poop, I'd like to step in it.
Now that's what I call a deal!
:yes: :thmbsp:
 
Daahhyyymmnnn smokin! Where is that poop? Hell, I'll lay in it for prices like that!

Curious though, you say you don't believe in a center channel? Explain to me why that is if you don't mind. Thanks!
 
WW,

I'm a real psychoacoustics kind of guy. Sit dead center between the speakers, play a mono signal, and each and every time humans will perceive the signal as coming from dead center between the two speakers. There is a triangle formed between you and the two speakers in stereo. Ideally, the distance from you to each speaker is the same. Place the television at the halfway point of the triangles base, set your receiver to "Phantom Center" or "No Center", and let psychoacoustics take over.

I also FIRMLY believe that despite the SPEAKER MANUFACTURERS claim that the center channel speaker is the "most important" speaker in home theater, I think it is the least important. Almost all of US on the forum could've probably formed not one, but TWO complete surround sysytems with speakers we owned already. Lot of other just ordinary folks (as opposed to us PERFECTLY ordinary audio freaks) probably could've too, with the old speakers they had in the attic or basement from college or whatever. But NOBODY had that center channel. That third perfect match to the front two. Perfect match between the front and rear wasn't important, but that center/front was! So the speaker companies sold a boatload of speakers. Now comes 6.1 and 7.1. I don't buy it. Hafler DynaQuad works for me. I got the Onk cause I knew it was a steal, and my daughter Stephie has been a princess about using the laboratory looking Dynaco SCA-80Q Integrated Amp/Akai tuner combo for the last 8 yrs or so.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
Hi TA. I've always wondered why people give psychoacoustics a bad rap. Most every time you see psychoacoustics in a thread it is in a negative light. The reason recording engineers and audio designers are able to trick us is because our brain let's them...they're simply using some tools to let us trick ourselves...and it's actually quite a good thing. Thanks for your positive spin on the good thing.


I've had my system running a phantom center in the past...and I have it running phantom right now. I would rather take two good mains...mediocre rears...and no center...than have a center of lesser quality sound in the center. Even then...I can live without the center channel and go phantom...so long as nobody is sitting way to one side or the other.


Course...I just drink the tea I like...maybe my taste will change someday...who knows:dunno: ;)


Tanks for your view
 
Thanks for your point of view there Sarge! I sure understand the psychoacoustics angle. When I am listening to two channel stereo my listening position is just slighty above the top of the triangle and of course the center image is right there dead center.

But 5.1 surround sound (only have seen one 6.1 DVD to date) is 6 deticated channels of audio track. Each track is designed to replicate a particular signal in each of the six speakers. While I can appreciate timbre matching of the front speakers I have found it is my experiance that it really isn't all that critical. Simply because the tracks of audio coming from all three front speakers is different anyway. If a person were to throw a cheesy center channel in they surely will suffer. It does sound like crap compared to the typical main speaker sound. But using a higher quality center lets that deticated audio track really shine allowing for the proper separation that the sound engineers of the DVD intended. While phantom mode is an option on various equipment the DVD is not intended to operate that way and I have found it to be a muddied sort of playback lacking the separation that should be there. Phantom mode is rather like EQ settings in ones music. It's just a way of "whacking" the sound output that is there. Hence I asked why you didn't use one because I didn't think it worked very well without it. BUT HEY! That's just my warped point of view... :screwy:
 
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very odd thing that....

... we all hear it said that the centre channel is the most important, yet manufacturers still just try to sell MTM's on their side, which we all know are really not the best solution.

Odd that !:puke:
 
I have to agree with WW and I gotta say a Center Channel is a must if you are a true moviephile, if you only watch them occasionally then OK you can get by with your "phantom" setup. But like WW says the soundtrack is 6 or 7 distinct tracks and the center channel carries the majority of the dialog. So if you don't have a center then dialog is getting mushed together with music and soundeffects that should be played seperately. I find it difficult to follow dialog during action scenes, music or when other sound effects are occuring when watching movies using the speakers in my HDTV, but when using my surround setup all dialog is very easy to follow along to at all times.
 
I think it may be a must for a "videophile" as opposed to a moviephile. Moviephile be having a good time listening out of a tin can.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
Originally posted by THOR
I have to agree with WW and I gotta say a Center Channel is a must if you are a true moviephile, if you only watch them occasionally then OK you can get by with your "phantom" setup. But like WW says the soundtrack is 6 or 7 distinct tracks and the center channel carries the majority of the dialog. So if you don't have a center then dialog is getting mushed together with music and soundeffects that should be played seperately. I find it difficult to follow dialog during action scenes, music or when other sound effects are occuring when watching movies using the speakers in my HDTV, but when using my surround setup all dialog is very easy to follow along to at all times.
Click to expand...


Thor...using the phantom center and listening to movies actually works out well. The center information is rock solid dead in the middle. I have actually used a phantom center with my old speakers and my new speakers...and both provided a rock solid imaging dead on center...right at the middle of the Tv!...While using the phantom center I also had/have super clarity and a depth in the soundstage that you just cannot get with a center speaker. In some instances, I would agree that running a phantom may not be the best choice...but when done right...when appropriate...I'll take the phantom almost every time!

But...you do have to have a system that images well...and the speakers have to be set up properly...once you go phantom...you'll never go back! unless you have some people over and someone is sitting way off to the side...but usually, it's just me ad the wife...and we got the best two seats in the house ;)
 
Yes to everything just said. Fortunately mor moi, I have two distintly different systems, in two different rooms, and both have speakers that image beyond belief. I don't use the big Carver's for HT anymore, but when I did they worked fine. Better than fine. Damn ribbons image better than anything else I've ever heard.

That includes the trendy Italian kilo-bucks mini-monitors that USED to be three doors down. Dean traded in 4 Sonus Faber "Concertina's" recently, for 4 of the little Maggie's that get delivered to your door for $500 as I understand it. He is gaga with joy. I heard those S-F's, and they were superlative. But with THAT kind of money invested, I want the WHOLE thing, not just mini-monitor. Nice styling though. His face still goes slack when he brings his newest recordings to audition on the Carver's. He's a recently retired music teacher, and director of the Tri-State Chorus(Choir?). Delaware, Pennsylvania, and the Great State of New Jersey being the three states.

The AR-9's in my HT rig image like nobodies business. I love those things. Low end is second (if that) to only the Carver's in my limited experience.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
I guess I still don't get it though. I sure understand center imaging. That's a no brainer. But a DVD is recorded in 5.1 separation. If you don't decode it as such you are not getting the proper separation. Sure you can have a great center dialog but you are not decoding the DVD as it was meant to be decoded and therefore not hearing its full benifit. Phantom mode is merely "whacking" the sound and you are not reaping the benifits of the Digital DTS suround sound track. Tis why I always prefered the use of a quality center channel. Back in the days of Dolby pro logic and its simple stereo separation, phantom mode made sense but now with 6 distinct channels I just don't understand the use of phantom mode. BUT BUT WAIT GUYS! If it works for you I am diggin it. I wanted to hear your thoughts on it is all... :)
 
Can I see a pic of what AR-9's look like?

Dolby Digital and DTS movie theaters have center speakers I imagine if they could get away with "phantoming" they would to spare the extra cost, so there must be some benefit to a center channel ;)
 
Movie theaters NEED a center speaker, cause not everybody sits dead center in the theater.

I'm trying to post a good picture of my AR-9's, but they come out dark like Ray's.

Center channel speakers benefit those that sit way off axis, and they benefit speaker manufacturers.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
The AR-9's

Having heard Toasted's AR-9 based system on music ... WHEW!
Very solid, open, and just good-sounding!
They would satisfy most people :cool:
 
"Center channel speakers benefit those that sit way off axis, and they benefit speaker manufacturers"

Well of course one if free to believe that is why a center channel is used but I would completely disagree and say it is used because there is a deticated audio track made for it. As well as deticated audio tracks made for the two side speakers. By not using that track and merely going to a stereo center image, one is not getting the full audio benifit of separation. One is not hearing what they want you to hear as designed. And of course, that's just fine too if you like it that way. But I for one am glad the Dolby Pro logic type sound has graduated into a more theater type enviorment with 5.1 separation. No doubt the speaker manufacturers benifit by producing another speaker and frankly, most center channel designs suck. The correct way to do it is buy three identical speakers and place them across the front.
 
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