Stepped in Poop Again

Center channel speakers are used to create a stable center image:

A) In the old days, if one's speakers were too far apart, it COULD degrade the ability of the system to create a stable and believable center image. Look at the ass end of old Fisher 500 tube receivers, and you will find a "center" pre-out, as well as "rear" pre-outs. Center speakers have been around a little longer than Dolby Digital.

B)In the new days, if one's speakers are too far apart, or if ones listening position isn't on-axis, OR, if a lot of other peoples listening position is a concern.

If your seat is on-axis, the only thing you're missing when you don't use a center channel, is the receipt for that center channel speaker.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
"If your seat is on-axis, the only thing you're missing when you don't use a center channel, is the receipt for that center channel speaker".

and the proper separation as designed by the DVD/movie audio engineers for 5.1 digital reproduction... :D

But HEY...if one likes stereo surround sound then so be it! But me, I left Pro Logic behind loooooong ago for the realism of DVD 5.1 DTS. :wave:
 
WW...I've heard several quality two channel systems that sounded better producing home theater movies than many "audiophile grade" HT systems...why? because the speakers were better...all two of them! :D
 
Well since I have a giant L shaped sectional you can be sitting off axis, but like WW said if no center works for you than thats fine but there are 6 or 7 discrete channels of sound and if if you have dialog, a gun shooting on the left and a car door slamming on the right then you are mixing all those channels together and missing something. OK mebbe not for you fellas if you sit in your "sweet spot" but I can't sit still and so make use of several both sitting and laying positions throughout a movie (prevents couch sores ;) )

Have either of you ever used a good quality speaker hooked to a good quality 5.1, 6.1 Dolby Digital or DTS AVR as a center channel and even tried it to see if you experience a difference?

I also don't believe in using most center channel speakers as a center, especially ones with a 5" or smaller woofer, I don't like them and instead use a pair of bookshelfs as my center channel, Thatch Ear also uses a pair of speakers for his center I believe. Actually I will be trying out a pair of vintage EPI 2 ways with 10" woofers today (raining here so movie day) for my center channel, using the Matrix Lobby Scene, helicopter crash of course ;) if they sound better than my Boston Acoustics A40's I will move the A40's to the rear to take over the rear center channel currently occupied by a pair of Infinty bookshelves. I will have to do something about the looks of the EPI's though since they aren't very pretty ;)
 
"WW...I've heard several quality two channel systems that sounded better producing home theater movies than many "audiophile grade" HT systems...why? because the speakers were better...all two of them"

Hey ya fisherman... Sure hope you don't get me wrong. To each their own is my calling card. You know, I too have heard and owned it both ways and again. "Sweet spot" or not, to me it's still muddied together not sounding correct. I like the proper separation that deticated sound tracks provide. Stereo center imaging is fine for music but for home theater I say again. Give me the superior technology of 5.1 reproduction. It's more "movie theater" like to me.
 
I am using TWO pair of 12-inch, 3-ways for the center channel. Driven by a Kenwood KA-206 amplifier (150 wpc). One pair of Yamaha NS-A838 and a pair of American Acoustic D-5550. The main L/R speakers are NS-A838, and the surrounds are NS-A638.
LFE are from two 15-inch powered subs.
Funny, but when the TV is on downstairs, I hear and feel more of the LFE when I'm up here on the 'puter. It could really startle the late sweetie Roxie the boxer ... :D
 
WW,

To get it REAL home theater like, pay some Cro-Mag type to walk through your HT room right in front of you, about 15 minutes after you start viewing. Then, unlike the rules in the theater....shoot him.



Bully,

You don't have enough power.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF
 
Well the EPI's are out the surrounds are shot :( I really need to try refoaming stuff someday. THOR = 10 pairs of woofers in need of refoaming :eek:
 
Oh hell yea... I love the "real" home theater feel. Pour soda on the floor so it's all sticky. Spread trash/popcorn all around. Throw some dirty clothes on each side of me for that "people" feel. Ahhhhh nuttin like it! :yes:
 
All this HT talk got me fired up so I finally did something with the 12" woofer and the adcom GSP 560 prologic amp I bought from TA along with some other odds and ends. My son now has a new frankenstein HT setup in his room. I had an old pair of 12" 3way Pioneers from the 80's, surrounds are shot and blown tweeter in one, so I put a pair of EMIT tweeters in em' and one cabinet gets the 12" earthquake sub and the other gets a 12" Rat shack woofer (I used the balance knob on the SA500 to equalize the sound between the two since the Earthquake was substantially louder), bang front mains are born. He has 2 pairs of KLH bookshelves one pair become his center channel and one the rear surrounds. The Adcom provides the power for the Centers and the rears and the Dolby decoding, a vintage Technics SA500 provides the power for the fronts. No sub needed since he has 2 12" woofers and the centers and rears have 8" woofers, all speakers running in wide are more than enough "boom" in his little 11' x 11' room. The Technics gives him a tuner, he uses his XBOX for DVD's and CD's and he has a 27" TV. We just watched the Matrix Lobby Scene in there and DAMM if I am not "Father of the Year" material ;) I will post pics when I can find my camera.
 
ww...heck...whatever works is all that counts...think nothing of it.


besides...you guys are talking about doing HT correct...if you guys were really trying to do it correct you would get some damn horns! ;)


later>>>>>>>>>>
 
Stereo vs HT

I have to put my two cents worth in here. . .There is nothing better than sitting in the "Sweet Spot" listening to music with a killer pair of full range speakers and a 2 channel amp with the balls to deliver the full range. . .
By the same token there is nothing better than watching/listening to a good movie on a 5.1 setup. . .But I use and believe it correct, all the exact same speaker in all positions. Now just because of the expense involved you need a good subwoofer even if you are using all full range speakers for the LFE channel.
Personally I dont have the room for all those full range speakers so I use all NHT Super Ones with one of them at center, but for music I go into my office where I can use my big JBL-L112s behind a 225x2 amp, not at ear bleeding levels but load enough to hear it all. . . .Doesnt get any better than this. . . .
 
You know gyusher, I almost bought some NHT's for a customer of mine. I bet you have a real sweet seamless soundfield across the front with those. But like the center channel. You have those out there that feel you don't need an LFE sub either for 5.1 audio reproduction. Figure that one out... :headscrat
 
I've got to go with Thor and WW on this one.

To me, it gets back to the theory that each of the 5.1 channels, has it's own sound track.

I don't see much cross over from stereo to HT. Different animals.

I have a completely separate vintage stereo set up in the family room down stairs.

My HT set up is pretty typical. Two tower Warfedale towers for fronts, a Bose center, two rears, and a powered sub.

I have spent quite a bit of time "adjusting" the output of each channel, with the Sony HT receivers on screen output adjustments. (for each separate channel)

It's overall adjustment was intended, to get the optimal playback in my main floor family room.

If I ever get time, I would like to try some different fronts, but it's not in the cards right now.

Like I've said before, we use HT for DVD movies, and we use it alot. We love it!

Once in a while I turn on the tuner I added, (cause the HT receivers tuner section sucks!) for some FM, but rarely.
 
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"I have spent quite a bit of time "adjusting" the output of each channel, with the Sony HT receivers on screen output adjustments. (for each separate channel)"

You know. If you want that H/T to really shine simply get yourself a budget Rat Shack analog sound pressure level meter. Then order off line the Avia test CD. That CD is great and will help you not only get your sound right but also adjust your TV color to correct levels. It's really worth its weight in gold, promise!!
 
Thor...I haven't been saying that phantom is the only way to go...I've been saying that if you don't have a center channel speaker that is on par with the quality of your mains...then, perhaps, phantom may be an option that will work out better for you. But, even if the person has a sub-par center and quality mains...the phantom center still may not be the best choice...if someone is sitting far off center...it won't work. If seating doesn't require someone sitting way off center, phantom can be an option.

Some things to successfully pull off a phantom HT system is that the speakers image very well. The speakers MUST be positioned correctly in the room. If the speakers are aimed to forward...or angled to far in...the soundstage will collapse...and (in a sense) pull apart...giving you not one location for the sound to come from...but two positions. Phase issue will also give you a floating image which seems to move around. While some other speakers/systems...just don't seem to image or stage well. In these cases...a person wouldn't be able to "get away" without using a center channel speaker.



You know, I too have heard and owned it both ways and again. "Sweet spot" or not, to me it's still muddied together not sounding correct.

WW...muddied together not sounding correct?

This may be due to the speakers, speaker positioning (speakers positioned to collapse the soundstage), room interaction or a possible phase issue.

I can see your point of not hearing the recording the way it was intended...and I could agree...that ideally...a center (of comparing quality with the mains) should be used with HT. But you really shouldn't hear a muddied or confused sound when using a phantom center. You may have had some other issues going on.


I actually do plan to get a center channel speaker. It will most likely be a JBL 2420 on an 650Hz Edgar saladbowl with possibly some JBL 10" or 12" midwoofers. Not quite sure when I'll end up starting these...who knows :dunno:


talk to ya's later>>>>>>>>>>
 
oh...WW...another good "set-up" CD to get is the test cd2 from Rives. They've got 1/3 octave test tones from 20 Hz to 20 kHz recorded flat.

now the kicker...you know how the rat shack db meter isn't perfectly linear...many people have posted the adjustments that must be added...or subtracted from the meters reading to adjust it. The CD also has a complete set of test tones that are adjusted to compensate for the non-linearity of the Radio Shack analog SPL meter.


I thought it was kinda neat to have your test tones adjusted for the meter...rather than adjusting your numbers after you take the reading.


later>>>>>>>>>
 
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