Straight Tonearm vs. S-Shaped Tonearm

They will, especially with an eliptical or hyerpeliptical stylus. The tracking error at the inner grooves will tear the record up and it will sound muddy after many plays.

Also, I set the tracking differently than the manufacturer recommends. They have it optimized for two points in the radius, about equidistant from the center and the lead in. I optimize it more for the center, toward the middle.

This DOES make for a bit more tracking error at the leadin but the grooves are flying and the damage not so severe.

Note also that I do not use the stated anti skate numbers. I actually LOOK AT THE STYLUS and set it so it is not pulling one way or the other.

I have had very good results. VERY good rsults.
 
You'd actually be surprised at how much of this thread is not founded on anything hard except the standards of design and rated cart weight to arm ratio. The rest is precision in alignment and that's pretty forgiving, too when you add up the b.s. within thousands of an inch.

Just last night saw t.v. how crap is made and some india tech is aligning composite tone arm cart mount by eye. x-z. so much for that..

A good old s-arm with bayonet stock is pretty precise in quite a few models. it's mostly a design thingy in s arm is more rigid and balance is usually less influenced by anti-skate adjustments.. with are less needed with good tracking and level table or platter and fixed arm suspension. I level regardless. a 1.5 gram load cart will track without anti skate with all level unless speed or just a worn record.

imo as usual.. :D
 
The real important design consideration for any tone arm is its pivots for vertical lift. They must be (in line of course) and that line has to be parallel to the mounting screws center line. This keeps the arm from going into an azimuth arc when it encounters a warp. Its an azimuth thing. That is why most tonearms, whether straight or "S" shaped, have a specific alignment design intent. In otherwords, while the arm is arcing up and down when it encounters the warp, its also azimuth arcing because the pivots are not in line with the cartridge mounting screws (and thus the cartridge alignment).

This is why you will see the pivots at an odd angle in relationship to the tonearm. I have one turntable (a Sony PS-X7) that did not follow these rules. In real world applications, it may not be a big deal, but with moderately warped records, azimuth smear may be seen and heard as a revolutionary thump, and may cause revolutionary woofer pumping, because the contact area of the stylus shifts, azimuth wise.

Otherwise, both tonearms produce the same quality of playback. The "S" shape is more for looks (the cartridge may look "crooked" to some non-audiophiles on a straight tonearm).

'ner
 
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The purpose of a car suspension is to track; just like a tonearm. I have never seen anyone argue for more mass in such a case. The opposite is quite true. Billions have been spent in trying to lighten suspension components and with good reason: physics.
 
An S arm is more expensive to make.
That usually means that the manufacturer will probably also not cut costs in other areas, like bearings.
Higher arm inertia (delta between straight and S) is irrelevant when compared with the mass of the shell.
Alignment of the line between cartridge center of mass to the pivot point perpendicular on the pivot bearings is more important IMO, and that cannot be done with straight arms.
 
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The real important design consideration for any tone arm is its pivots for vertical lift. They must be (in line of course) and that line has to be parallel to the mounting screws center line. This keeps the arm from going into an azimuth arc when it encounters a warp. Its an azimuth thing. That is why most tonearms, whether straight or "S" shaped, have a specific alignment design intent. In otherwords, while the arm is arcing up and down when it encounters the warp, its also azimuth arcing because the pivots are not in line with the cartridge mounting screws (and thus the cartridge alignment).

This is why you will see the pivots at an odd angle in relationship to the tonearm. I have one turntable (a Sony PS-X7) that did not follow these rules. In real world applications, it may not be a big deal, but with moderately warped records, azimuth smear may be seen and heard as a revolutionary thump, and may cause revolutionary woofer pumping, because the contact area of the stylus shifts, azimuth wise.

Otherwise, both tonearms produce the same quality of playback. The "S" shape is more for looks (the cartridge may look "crooked" to some non-audiophiles on a straight tonearm).

'ner
An older post, but that may explain problems I had with an old table. No matter what I did I couldnt get rid of the woofers pumping.
 
The discussion of manufacturing cost of straight vs S or J shaped tonearms is a little off kilter. I reviewed pictures of 50 of the most expensive tonearms made and found that 37 of the fifty were straight arms. Only 13 were S or J shaped and two of them were vintage arms (SME II's and III's). So the guy selling you a $5,000 tt wants a little higher profit margin and makes his tonearm straight? I don't think so.

What I think has straightened out the tonearm is the need to accomplish two things; 1) eliminate extraneous lateral balance weights which are needed to reduce torsional imbalance of S and J arms and 2) to dampen out the resonances coming down the tonearm from the cartridge. Let me explain. Hanging more weights along the tonearm will simply muddy the resonance since the weights are off-axis and begin to vibrate with their own frequency. The tonearm already is off-axis itself so the lateral weights will double the the mass that is vibrating off-axis. Why is this the case? Any bends in the tonearm will generate an additional vector to the original resonance creating a more complex waveform passing down the armtube to the pivot point. Irrespective of other cartridge/tonearm resonance considerations, there is the all important impact of resonance on the pivot whether that is a knife edge, a gimballed bearing or a unipivot. Too much resonance will cause the pivot to "chatter" which is why the better tonearms are filled with resonance absorbing materials inside the tube. But some resonance is still going to get through and the next opportunity to absorb or dampen it and reduce pivot chatter" is with the counterbalance weights. The optimum point at which to hang counterbalance weights is just past the pivot point thereby minimizing effective mass. This was true for the SME III and is true for most of the new exotic tonearms. The counterweight acts to dampen out tonearm resonances by their mass and minimizing the pivot-to-weight distance also works to reduce oscillation which would feed back resonance to the tonearm. Finally, shorter, i.e. straight, tonearms result in resonances reaching the dampening counterbalance mass faster which is a separate benefit.

Speaking of extraneous "thingies" hung off the tonearm, one of my pet peeves is the stylus guard. Who in their right mind thinks it is a good idea to have a open-ended plasticky thing rattling around at the business end of the cartridge within a hairsbreath of the stylus. Yes, I know that it protects that expensive diamond tipped cartridge from ruin but it also degrades the sound. The proof is the introduction of the carbon fiber brush that Shure began putting on their topline cartridges. They claimed that it was to better track warped records but if I come across a warped record in my collection I will throw it out and still have 11,999 records left. Some advocates of the brush say it helps reduce resonances where their cartridge is mismatched to their tonearm but isn't it more judicious to get the match right in the first place?
 
The proof is the introduction of the carbon fiber brush that Shure began putting on their topline cartridges. They claimed that it was to better track warped records but if I come across a warped record in my collection I will throw it out and still have 11,999 records left. Some advocates of the brush say it helps reduce resonances where their cartridge is mismatched to their tonearm but isn't it more judicious to get the match right in the first place?
The brush does damp the arm/cartridge resonance. Aiming to get the resonance within a specific band is an attempt to mitigate the effects of resonance, but damping the resonance is more effective. The ultimate damping system is that designed by Townshend:
Townshend-Rock-7-Turntable-Vibration-Isolated-front-end-damping-980x360.jpg
 
The discussion of manufacturing cost of straight vs S or J shaped tonearms is a little off kilter. I reviewed pictures of 50 of the most expensive tonearms made and found that 37 of the fifty were straight arms. Only 13 were S or J shaped and two of them were vintage arms (SME II's and III's). So the guy selling you a $5,000 tt wants a little higher profit margin and makes his tonearm straight? I don't think so.

What I think has straightened out the tonearm is the need to accomplish two things; 1) eliminate extraneous lateral balance weights which are needed to reduce torsional imbalance of S and J arms and 2) to dampen out the resonances coming down the tonearm from the cartridge. Let me explain. Hanging more weights along the tonearm will simply muddy the resonance since the weights are off-axis and begin to vibrate with their own frequency. The tonearm already is off-axis itself so the lateral weights will double the the mass that is vibrating off-axis. Why is this the case? Any bends in the tonearm will generate an additional vector to the original resonance creating a more complex waveform passing down the armtube to the pivot point. Irrespective of other cartridge/tonearm resonance considerations, there is the all important impact of resonance on the pivot whether that is a knife edge, a gimballed bearing or a unipivot. Too much resonance will cause the pivot to "chatter" which is why the better tonearms are filled with resonance absorbing materials inside the tube. But some resonance is still going to get through and the next opportunity to absorb or dampen it and reduce pivot chatter" is with the counterbalance weights. The optimum point at which to hang counterbalance weights is just past the pivot point thereby minimizing effective mass. This was true for the SME III and is true for most of the new exotic tonearms. The counterweight acts to dampen out tonearm resonances by their mass and minimizing the pivot-to-weight distance also works to reduce oscillation which would feed back resonance to the tonearm. Finally, shorter, i.e. straight, tonearms result in resonances reaching the dampening counterbalance mass faster which is a separate benefit.

Speaking of extraneous "thingies" hung off the tonearm, one of my pet peeves is the stylus guard. Who in their right mind thinks it is a good idea to have a open-ended plasticky thing rattling around at the business end of the cartridge within a hairsbreath of the stylus. Yes, I know that it protects that expensive diamond tipped cartridge from ruin but it also degrades the sound. The proof is the introduction of the carbon fiber brush that Shure began putting on their topline cartridges. They claimed that it was to better track warped records but if I come across a warped record in my collection I will throw it out and still have 11,999 records left. Some advocates of the brush say it helps reduce resonances where their cartridge is mismatched to their tonearm but isn't it more judicious to get the match right in the first place?
Hi there
i see you are well versed in tone arm technology,
i use a SME 3009 mk3 tone arm with a stanton 881s cartridge (with original stylus and brush)
is that a good match? i have been very happy with that set up for a few years ,that cart seems to sound great on that arm ,but it could just be me and the sound i like on a personal basis ,
i would like to hear your thoughts ,
thanks in advance
 
For those who are fans of the Gerrard Zero 100, check out the Thales tonearm. It has a pivoting head shell much like the Gerrard.
 
I though an S-shape tonearm helped with resonance, since resonance(s) will travel up a straight arm more freely, while the S shape will break it up or lessen it somehow. :dunno:
 
just a complaint........i've gone to vinylengine, and tried other sources....but that calculator is useless to me as i cannot find the masses of my turntable arm, the stock headshell, the screws, or the V15 III......I wish i could. I'm kinda a spec person and like to match things up....
I have a digital tracking scale......should i just use that?....Pl 518
 
just a complaint........i've gone to vinylengine, and tried other sources....but that calculator is useless to me as i cannot find the masses of my turntable arm, the stock headshell, the screws, or the V15 III......I wish i could. I'm kinda a spec person and like to match things up....
I have a digital tracking scale......should i just use that?....Pl 518
You could find out what your arm/cartridge resonance is more accurately than relying on published data and calculators - by measuring it. It isn't that hard to do. Download "Audacity" (it's free software) and record the lead-in groove of a record, then use the spectrum analyzer to look for a peak in the spectrum. That's the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge.
 
You could find out what your arm/cartridge resonance is more accurately than relying on published data and calculators - by measuring it. It isn't that hard to do. Download "Audacity" (it's free software) and record the lead-in groove of a record, then use the spectrum analyzer to look for a peak in the spectrum. That's the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge.
Audacity has a spectrum analyzer in it?!

JkjdWcFE5mh9oQqNkmNmnPe1Pbw-SSukXi-M-DePb6hJjnQHf4t_Zw5RZOsZK1BumCRVwhQAcoxpLWNiYLWm-WXhlqaeU52w-lcOsoRvWAlS6HBhfc8MYygAGPCVRQcPwz9gVduqtLMf6X4YGZr3_axYSSLQc_HyXxI
 
You could find out what your arm/cartridge resonance is more accurately than relying on published data and calculators - by measuring it. It isn't that hard to do. Download "Audacity" (it's free software) and record the lead-in groove of a record, then use the spectrum analyzer to look for a peak in the spectrum. That's the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge.

huh?...
 
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