Stylus Comparison: Jico Elliptical vs. Tonar Hyper-Elliptical in Shure V15-III

[Hugh Mongous]

[EDIT] Added links to uncompressed audio files

When looking for a new stylus I found a lot of discussion about Elliptical vs. Hyper-Elliptical vs. Shibata vs. SAS etc. But no real evidence of the differences between the lot. Especially between cheap round/elliptical styli and the step up to a hyper-elliptical.

So, I decided to make one.

I've compared the 24 euro version of the Jico Elliptical (VN35E) between the 120 euro costing Tonar Hyper-Elliptical (VN35HE).
Stylus pressure, VTA and anti-skating are left exactly the same.

The cheaper Jico really doesn't sound great. There seems to be heavy distortion in the low-mid range and treble doesn't extend as much. Stereo field is also not as defined.
Also, the phase of the recording seems te be inverted on the Jico stylus somehow. Not sure how this is possible since I've literally only changed stylus. I've corrected the phase inversion of these tracks in the video.

I might post the lossless files, if anybody is interested in those.
...and here they are:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/c1b3u2w4nlzkspn/Needle_Test.zip

Gear used:
- Dual 704 with Shure V15-III
- Jico VN35E
- Tonar VN35HE
- Yamaha AX-890
- Edirol (Roland) UA-1ex

Software path:
- Recorded with Ableton Live @ 48k-24bit
- Edited with Premiere Pro
- Limited using iZotope 7 with ± 0.5db gain reduction
- Rendered at 320kbps AAC

Tracks used:
- Todd Terje - Preben Goes To Acapulco (Prins Thomas Remix)
- Montana Sextet - Who needs enemies (with a friend like you?) (club mix)

 

[malden]

The 24 euro stylus you have may have been made by JICO, but is not the same as this one...

http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1044

 

[Hugh Mongous]

The 24 euro stylus you have may have been made by JICO, but is not the same as this one...

http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1044

Indeed, but it was otherwise interesting to see the difference between the two.

 

[vincei]

Well the HE does seem to track much better than the elliptical. There is a large difference in price of course, but tracking ability is worth it for me. I personally cannot listen to anything but Microline tips (from AT) due to the superior tracking ability, I think I've tried them all!

 

[bberkom]

I recently installed the neo SAS from Jico for my v15 type III and I couldn't be more pleased. I haven't heard any others besides the original super-tracker that had some hours on it, but the neo SAS tracks very well and sounds amazing. It may be a little pricey, but not sure I could go back to a lesser stylus now.

 

[fredjones]

I listened to the video. Even played the video in HD (I think sound resolution may be better doing this?).
Could not hear a difference using my good headphones. I understand what you are trying to do here, but to really resolve
subtle difference in styli on the same cartridge, its gonna take more than a compressed audio file to do so. And it is converted again
once Youtube gets ahold of it, so the files certainly aren't pristine, if you know what I mean. I am sure listening on
your high resolution home system the differences may be readily apparent, but I ain't hearing no difference on the video.

Give me a link to the lossless files and I can give those a try.

Cheers

 

[Hugh Mongous]

I listened to the video. Even played the video in HD (I think sound resolution may be better doing this?).
Could not hear a difference using my good headphones. I understand what you are trying to do here, but to really resolve
subtle difference in styli on the same cartridge, its gonna take more than a compressed audio file to do so. And it is converted again
once Youtube gets ahold of it, so the files certainly aren't pristine, if you know what I mean. I am sure listening on
your high resolution home system the differences may be readily apparent, but I ain't hearing no difference on the video.

Give me a link to the lossless files and I can give those a try.

Cheers

Well, even on YouTube there is a striking difference, especially in the kick in the first track. It sounds more 'stompy' and doesn't sound as deep. Highs are also slightly rolled off.

But, I'm uploading uncompressed 48k-24bit wav-files as we speak I'll post them ASAP.

 

[Hugh Mongous]

I've uploaded the uncompressed files for anyone who is interested in a more detailed comparison.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/c1b3u2w4nlzkspn/Needle_Test.zip

 

[onwardjames]

I appreciate this comparison, and welcome to AK, Hugh Mongous (lol). Recently spent 215 for a one-and-only SAS for my Shure V15 II improved. They said it was the only one they had, so....? Anyway, it sounds better, far better than anything else I have. That includes an 8mz/Grado Black combo that is pretty damned good.

by the way, Hugh, do you resemble this guy?

 

[Hugh Mongous]

I recently installed the neo SAS from Jico for my v15 type III and I couldn't be more pleased. I haven't heard any others besides the original super-tracker that had some hours on it, but the neo SAS tracks very well and sounds amazing. It may be a little pricey, but not sure I could go back to a lesser stylus now.

I'm really interested in those, but I simply can't justify the steep price for those.. Unless somebody makes a comparison

 

[Hugh Mongous]

I appreciate this comparison, and welcome to AK, Hugh Mongous (lol). Recently spent 215 for a one-and-only SAS for my Shure V15 II improved. They said it was the only one they had, so....? Anyway, it sounds better, far better than anything else I have. That includes an 8mz/Grado Black combo that is pretty damned good.

by the way, Hugh, do you resemble this guy?

Any resemblance is merely coincidental.

 

[bberkom]

I'd love to, but it's even harder to justify buying two of them.

 

[Hugh Mongous]

I'd love to, but it's even harder to justify buying two of them.

I can imagine haha

 

[hank356]

I think that perhaps a mistake has been made. Since the JICO VN35 [e007443] sells for $78.00 plus S/H. The JICO VN3G[e007499] sells for $33.00 plus S/H and does have a different (less) frequency response, compared to the Elliptical Stylus. The G model would equate more to the stated (cheap) 24 Euro price. All that being said, Thakker dropped the JICO reference on this product in early 2016. It is now only referred as Generic. They do however sell the SAS type, which we all know is a JICO product. Since I have a V15 TYPE III, bought new in 1978 and I have three stylus for this cartridge. They are, Shure VN35E, which is the original (low hours), the JICO VN35 [e007443],and the JICO SAS NEO VN35HE. The JICO VN35 produces a very similar (near identical) sound as the Shure VN35E. However the SAS variant is much better than both, in all aspects.

 

[ghamilton]

I recently installed the neo SAS from Jico for my v15 type III and I couldn't be more pleased. I haven't heard any others besides the original super-tracker that had some hours on it, but the neo SAS tracks very well and sounds amazing. It may be a little pricey, but not sure I could go back to a lesser stylus now.

That is what I have. Very good. I also have the "VIVIDLINE" from lpgear and is a real bargain compaired to the SAS.

 

[tw1st]

I'd like to see an actual JICO elliptical vs a JICO HE vs a genuine Shure HE. Bonus points for an SAS or Shure elliptical.

My communications with JICO confirmed that the HE styli (at least specifically the N97HE replacement) "feature a bonded elliptical diamond tip with radial dimensions 0.3 x 0.7 mil." This would be the same as the standard elliptical.

For ease of reference, the Shure hyperelliptical styli are, from what I understand, 0.2 x 1.5 mil.

Without the comparison, I currently can't justify ponying up extra $ for an aftermarket "hyperelliptical" which likely amounts to little more than some polish on the stone.

 

[revox-b77]

^ We need some microscope shots of the different tips as well.

 

[malden]

I'd like to see an actual JICO elliptical vs a JICO HE vs a genuine Shure HE. Bonus points for an SAS or Shure elliptical.

My communications with JICO confirmed that the HE styli (at least specifically the N97HE replacement) "feature a bonded elliptical diamond tip with radial dimensions 0.3 x 0.7 mil." This would be the same as the standard elliptical.

For ease of reference, the Shure hyperelliptical styli are, from what I understand, 0.2 x 1.5 mil.

Without the comparison, I currently can't justify ponying up extra $ for an aftermarket "hyperelliptical" which likely amounts to little more than some polish on the stone.

I agree with you. I have been very happy with JICO's bonded elliptical and conical stylli. They are every bit as good as the Shure originals. Regarding your comment about extra polishing on the stone, I wouldn't diminish the importance of taking that extra step in the manufacturing process. I do own a JICO VN45HE for my V15 type lV, it is also "bonded" but the sound is superb and almost indistinguishable from the original "nude" mounted Shure hyper-elliptical. There is much more to a stylus than the shape of the tip. The tip, cantilever, suspension and magnet are all equally important. I'll take a well designed and carefully manufactured conical over a cheap elliptical any day.

 

[tw1st]

The real point that I was trying to make is that use of "hyperelliptical" by Shure, and that of every other manufacturer seem to be very distinct. The former refers to a specific tip shape only made by Shure, while the latter seems to simply refer to a "higher quality" (whether that be extra polishing, etc.) elliptical tip. I may be wrong, but it also seems that none of Shure's competitors use the term, it is instead mainly used by aftermarket style manufacturers.

With JICO using presumably all the same components, you really are paying extra for polishing. Now if this produces noticeable improvements in sound vs. a basic JICO elliptical, then maybe it's worthwhile to spring for the HE despite it not really being an actual hyperelliptical stylus.

 

[malden]

I've looked at a dozen or so elliptical styli from different manufacturers under a microscope and they all were conical tips with the front and rear ground flat. This does not make an ellipse. In geometry class in the 5th grade, we drew lines, triangles, circles, etc. I don't recall a shape referred to as "hyper elliptical".

My real point is that there is way too much importance placed on the terms used by various manufacturers to describe the shape of their stylus tips. For the majority of my listening, I use JICO clones of Shure conicals. If I don't like what I'm hearing, I step it up to an "E" or "HE", sometimes there is an improvement, most times not. It probably depends on the quality of the recording.